Roman Trireme scratchbuilt (UPDATE 07.10.13)

[Toma]

[KenzoSato]

I have no words

[Susofrick]

Can only repeat what Kenzo said, no words!

[MABO]

I did not have either...

[Peter]

This looks really impressive

[Ben90]

Thanks! Here is an update and a first setup... I know... nobody would try to enter this ship after the collision with the roman ship but it creates more action on the dio

[MABO]

Looks very promising!

[sberry]

After having admired this fantastic work for some time without ever commenting, I feel it’s time to add some remarks of my own.
Krugi and FrankZ noticed already that 1) there were no biremes present and 2) they would have been too small anyhow to carry a corvus. Ancient battleships were built for speed and, accordingly, they had not much draft. So only the large quinqueremes actually used by the Romans at Mylae were able to carry this weapon, but even with this class of large ships the problem of becoming too top-heavy was apparently the reason that the Roman navy later abandoned the corvus altogether.
And under battle conditions, the ships were propelled by oars only, with mast, sails and rigging being left ashore. This was, of course, not possible when one was surprised by the enemy. But in the case of Mylae the Roman commander had set out for the Carthaginians in combat-ready conditions, so no sails on the Roman ship please.
Despite all this “constructive criticism”, I still have to say that your ships and the whole setting are absolutely great! As someone who relies on the plastic models from Zvezda, I can only admire your skills. And I always think that some minor flaws with respect to historical accuracy are acceptable, as long as a model or a dio has the right “feeling” – which certainly is the case here.

[Ben90]

Thanks for the (honest) comments! Ok... I really think about a third row of oars on the roman ship, so it would be a trireme. The size would be ok to carry the corvus, even though it is no quinqireme; the model is about 44cm long, this would be about 32 meters in 1/1 scale.

[mickey mouse]

Did you scratchbuilded the 2 ships???? wow !!!
Verry good job, Ben

[KenzoSato]

[Ben90]

The next steps: Currently I´m adding a thir row of oars to the roman vessel (I won´t remove the sail, because it looks better with it, accurate or not...). In addition to this, I try to sculpt/convert some figures. Teh pictures are not very good but here are the results so far:

Roman archer


Carthaginian heavy (African) spearmen


Spanish scutarii


Any comments and advices are welcome...

[KenzoSato]

Great work

[krugi3]

sberry

And under battle conditions, the ships were propelled by oars only, with mast, sails and rigging being left ashore. This was, of course, not possible when one was surprised by the enemy. But in the case of Mylae the Roman commander had set out for the Carthaginians in combat-ready conditions, so no sails on the Roman ship please.

Principally correct, but two points against it:
1. Up to my information it was a suprise at Mylae, as the Carthaginians attacked the Romans immediatly after sighting them (even without any tactical formation). They possibly thought that the Romans were no match for them - as in all previous encounters with Roman-allied sea forces.
2. Sails and masts are sometimes not left on land, because they are used for additional speed (for attack or more often for a flight - see battle of Actium, at least the ships of Marcus Antonius). Mylae was the first battle of the Roman fleet and even its commander was unsure about its fighting abilities - so flight might be in his mind as last alternative and combat-ready can be meant exactly in this way.

I also made my ships with masts and rolled up sail (looks more impressive, is more likely to me and I found no arguments against it). If you have any evidence that this is wrong, please let me know.

Regards
Thomas

[Ben90]

...looks more impressive...

That´s the point

[Frankzett]

@ krugi3
theoreticaly right, but between the fleets have seen each other and a battle, there must be time enough to lay the sails down and don't forget that each side have to draw up a battle line. So I would say the sails should be stowed away.

So should it be impressive or do you want to show a characteristic ancient sea battle?

The figures looking very nice, o.k. I do not agree with this kind of roman archer and spanish infantryman as ship crews - nevertheless they are very good converted and sculpted! Especially the spanish soldier looks very good!!

Greetings
Frank

[krugi3]

Frankzett

So should it be impressive or do you want to show a characteristic ancient sea battle?

It should be historically accurate and in many ways Mylae was not a "characteristic" ancient sea battle.

1. It was the first battle of an entirely Roman fleet. Oarman were trained mainly on land, navigational skills of the crew was not up to Carthaginian levels, even the Roman commander was an infantry officer. Therefore the chance of beating a veteran Carthaginian fleet are not the best. The corvus was the only way to achieve surprise and - as we now know - worked extremely well and lead to the destruction and fleet of the Carthaginians.

2. The fleets met by accident. To lay down the mast takes some time. If the time for this operation is sufficent if both fleets attacked immediately is a matter of speculation. These ships were fast - very fast! Up to a modern double 8 rowing boat! The ships were not very stable, so this is also an additional time delay. Therefore it is most likely that the masts are not down. Maybe the sails could be down and thrown over board, as a Roman galley has a very limited space for stowing.

3. A characteristic ancient sea battle is indeed in modern eyes a little strange. When the fleets sighted each other normally all ships landed on the nearest shore, lay down masts and sails, remove all moveable parts and then go back to sea and form battle order. Then the fleets close to make contact and try to ram or board the enemy. In large formations there is little space for manouvering so its quite a carnage and close combat occurs. Much detail of used tactics, equipment, etc. is lost to us over the centuries.

4. Roman ships had additional infantry on board. So the ship is much heavier than a Carthaginian. Maybe the sails are used to increase speed. When boarding over the corvus, these additional soldiers can make the difference.

5. Even a Roman quinquereme can possibly have only 2 of oars (some experts stating perhaps only 1 row). Quinquereme means only that in each section five oarmen are doing their job. If this is 2-2-1 (3 rows) or 3-2 (2 rows) or only 5 (1 row) is a matter of endless disputes.

For further information check these books:
Viereck, H.D.L.: Classis Romana - die römische Flotte (I don't know if there is an English version)
Gardiner, Robert: The age of the galley

So a Roman ship of Mylae can look quite like this (command ship, no corvus):


Greetings from Austria
Thomas

[Ben90]

The spearmen:





Hope you´ll like them...

[dirk]

Looks good !

[Peter]

Wonderfull painted figures