Work in Progress

Persian galley from scratch (paperboard)

Posted by erpapishulo on 10 Apr 2020, 18:20

Hello everybody!! new recruit here!!

Basically I'm a big fan of greek antiquity and due to quarantine I had some time to to look back at the models I did some years ago. I've seen around here some masters modelers so I was hoping to receive some help from the veterans hahah
Been particulary interested in naval warfare between persians and greek states. The last model I made was a tiny greek galley from cardboard and was hopping to build her a persian adversary. Please criticize it at ease:

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The problem is that I didn't found enough info about the ships (details and images) that persians used in salimina and such battles. I know there were phoenicians, egyptians, and a bunch of others guys.
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I wanted to make this model the most authentic I could not like the old one ...I've imagined a sharp and colourful galley probably with just a row of paddlers:

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I don't know how to make the paddles with home materials someone has any good trick? Also there were round rams or its just a stupid idea? There were galleys without sails?

Hope there is someone that can help me :-D everybody stay safe!
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erpapishulo  Cameroon
 
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Posted by Bluefalchion on 10 Apr 2020, 18:37

Super cool ship and nice introductory post!

I don't know a ton about ancient naval warfare but the guys you are going to want to hit up are Kostis Ornerakis and Mr. Cryns. PM them and I am more than sure they will give you some helpful tips.
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Bluefalchion  United States of America
 
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Posted by C M Dodson on 10 Apr 2020, 18:54

A very good start.

Mr Crynns work is here

https://www.geschichte-in-miniaturen.de/forum/

He has a Tyros project there and his ships are beautiful.

Also the Mylae and vikings projects will be of interest to you.

Best wishes,

Chris
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Posted by Bessiere on 10 Apr 2020, 19:07

Welcome to the forum erpapishulo! You certainly did come to a place with many expert modelers who are most friendly and helpful. It's the same reason I joined up actually. I know nothing about the galleys but for oars I was thinking possibly using brass wire and heating and flattening the ends or cutting them from flat stock and inserting them in to thin brass tubes.

The first large boat picture you posted looks entirely impractical having such a low waterline and the rowers horribly exposed. The smaller designs look eminently more practical. Being the Persian empire almost anything was possible so let your imagination run wild, you can't be too far away from reality. Good luck with your project and welcome to Bennos.
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Posted by MABO on 10 Apr 2020, 20:48

Welcome here. I am no expert in naval warfare of ancient times, but building something from the scratch is allways an initiative that should get applause. Btw. it is really interesting a very welcome to have members here from Africa!
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MABO  Europe
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Posted by Michael Robert on 10 Apr 2020, 22:41

Hello erpapishulo,
great entry! Welcome
Colleagues already gave you the name to look up, Mr Cryns
Your ship looks really nice. Do you also paint figures?

Greetings again
Michael
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Posted by Kekso on 11 Apr 2020, 18:17

Nice work. Welcome to the forum.
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Kekso  Croatia

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Posted by lobo on 11 Apr 2020, 22:02

Exciting project,
Scratch? What a great amount of work¡
Congratulations…Erpapishulo¡? :-D :-D :-D I can understand....funny name¡
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Posted by Cryns on 13 Apr 2020, 18:34

Dear Erpapishulo,

Its always nice to see somebody making a model from scratch... especially when its ancient stuff. And I love your drawings, man! They are your own drawings, aren't they?

Personally I would recommend you to do more research since your desire is
erpapishulo wrote:I wanted to make this model the most authentic I could
and from the pictures you added in your topic its clear you are mixing up all shipmodels from the bronze age 1200 BC to Assyrian 9th century BC up to the Archaic Greek period of the 7th-6th century BC.

Two books I recommend to you:
The Age of the Galley https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0851779557? ... th=1&psc=1

Ancient Greek Warships https://ospreypublishing.com/ancient-greek-warship-pb

But before you have ordered, received (in Cameroon) and read these two books, the lockdown will probably been over and your spare time has gone too.
So let me help you a littlebit.

By Salimina you probably mean Salamis. The most feared opponents of the Greeks at Salamis were the Phoenicians. Also the Egyptians were present in great numbers but we don't know much about their galleys.

The Phoencians used triremes like the Greek. They did not differ that much from the Greek triremes. Some sources say they had pointed rams like in the pictures you found of the 9th-7th century BC Phoencian biremes. Other sources say they had no outriggers for the oars on the top-level but instead had wider hulls to enable the oars to be handled. Other sources say they were higher, bigger and more heavy than the Greek triremes.

Apart from triremes, also biremes and monoremes like penteconters were parts of those fleets too. By the time of Salamis around 480 Phoenician galleys may have looked like the later Carthagenian ships like here:

Phoenician-Carthagenian bireme: https://i.pinimg.com/736x/9a/54/b2/9a54 ... d8f977.jpg

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com ... f=1&nofb=1

Other 5th and 4th century Phoenician galley's can be seen on coins:

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com ... f=1&nofb=1

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com ... f=1&nofb=1

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com ... f=1&nofb=1

erpapishulo wrote:I don't know how to make the paddles with home materials someone has any good trick? Also there were round rams or its just a stupid idea? There were galleys without sails?


For galley oars use bamboo barbecue/saté sticks (the long, thin ones)
Make an incision in the end of each stick and glue a paper oarblade in the incision.
No there were no round rams, that would make no sense. Such round ram looks like an modern days oil-tanker bow.
Yes galleys without sails were standard during battles. They were left ashore or taken down and stored on deck. For traveling long distance, one or two sails were common.

Good luck with your galley!
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Cryns  Netherlands

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Posted by Bluefalchion on 13 Apr 2020, 20:17

As always, I have almost zero interest in the navies of the ancient world, but I still can't help being drawn in when Mr. Cryns and our other fantastic forum members start to weigh in with their knowledge. Fantastic.
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Posted by Susofrick on 14 Apr 2020, 09:23

A huge welcome here and even though I'm not that interested in boats and water and such I am VERY interested in how your work continue!
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Susofrick  Sweden
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Posted by Egbert on 15 Apr 2020, 12:48

Welcome to this forum Erpapishulo… :-D
I'm very excited about the progress of your boat.
The beginning looks very exciting and there is still a lot to be expected.
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Posted by erpapishulo on 16 Apr 2020, 20:42

Hello guys!! Thanks everybody for such a warm welcome you guys are amazing ...I've started today with the ship and can say thats its gonna be hard to not fail miserably hahah.
For those asking not from Cameroon but from Basque country :-D .

Mr Cryns :shock: its an enormous honour to hear your advices...I remember years ago seeing you cast your greek sailors and building your Tyros diorama... it was an eye opening to see someone working so hard in his models and with such veracity. Thank you so much for your history lesson I've seen how lost I was, these patterns on the coins are incredible!
Been searching and yes the carthage- phoenician ships should be the model for my galley (gonna purchase these books whenever I can)

Firstly I tried to imagine definitively how the galley its gonna look and try to make a plan of it ( Although I'm feeling I'm gonna improvise big part )
erpapishulo wrote:I wanted to make this model the most authentic I could not like the old one
so brave yet so foolish to state that here hahaha
So here is the idea...happy to see to see that you guys like the drawings

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Decided to give it a peck ram ,,Ive read around that they were an evolution of the phoenician to break the opponent's paddlers wich seems a pretty cool tactic before the frontal crashes

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Trying to start from the bottom and the ribs to make a solid base

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but shit happens

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the paperboard is pretty hard to cut in thin strips and I wanted it to look like wood beams so I need to keep thinking about it hahah

Decided to start by the last level and the floor of the oars trying to give to the paperboard a wood texture
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wich could make pretty decent results when painted

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Next putting the rowers floor

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The galley its gonna be a little thing with just 12 rowers (wich I think its a pretty bad start for making something truthful how the hell were 12 man to move that thing but anyways I just found these guys around there

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that roman helmet is gonna hurt to see in a persian galley something to be done

Well that's it for now ..Gonna try to keep working on it but it seems that quarantine doesnt't mean full free time :( at least fo me, hope everybody is safe out there and I would wait for critics and cool ideas!

PD sorry for my english guys hope I can make me understand hahah
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erpapishulo  Cameroon
 
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Posted by Bluefalchion on 17 Apr 2020, 00:44

One of the many things I like about this forum is that contributors here are willing to share when things didn't work and what frustrations and false starts they had to work through. Even a grandmaster still faces challenges and still keeps trying to find areas to improve. So don't be discouraged if your projects do not turn out exactly as you envisioned they would do. Each try is a journey in and of itself, and every completed work, no matter how flawed, is another step forward in the journey.
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Posted by Susofrick on 17 Apr 2020, 08:29

I will follow this with interest! Is that Orion's sailors?
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Posted by Cryns on 17 Apr 2020, 10:54

Fantastic drawings again!
But your rowers are postioned the wrong way around.
Rowers always row backwards, with their backs towards the front of the ship.
For now its not too late to turn them.
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Posted by C M Dodson on 17 Apr 2020, 11:35

Have you considered balsa wood for your construction?

It’s wood so therefore grained and planking with. Sharp knife is easy to ‘draw’.

Best wishes,

Chris
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Posted by Santi Pérez on 17 Apr 2020, 20:50

Cryns wrote:Fantastic drawings again!...


Susofrick wrote:I will follow this with interest! Is that Orion's sailors?


I completely agree with Cryns and Susofrick. And yes, Susofrick, they are Roman sailors from Orion. Fantastic figures, by the way, I have used some of their heads in my conversions, this one for example:

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Congratulations, erpapishulo, a great and very interesting project. :thumbup:

I have a curiosity: which is the origin of your nick? It sounds like the linguistic deformation with which an Andalusian would pronounce the Spanish words "El papi chulo" (literally, "the cool daddy"). :drool:

Best regards.

Santi.
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Santi Pérez  Spain
 
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Posted by Bessiere on 18 Apr 2020, 23:09

Looks like great start to me. Maybe build a small ship before taking on doing a flagship. I guess this would be the correct thread to mention this but I have a box of Emhar viking sailors I know I will never use so if someone has need of them let me know.
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Posted by erpapishulo on 21 Apr 2020, 10:44

Bessiere wrote:Looks like great start to me. Maybe build a small ship before taking on doing a flagship. I guess this would be the correct thread to mention this but I have a box of Emhar viking sailors I know I will never use so if someone has need of them let me know.


Thanks Bessiere! Kind of my idea..trying to build a small warship cause I always saw big trirremes maquettes truly amazing but where are the small ones? in this ages to maintain a fleet with just big ships had to be an economical ruin and I supposed that a lot of coast villages had theirs small defensive fleets of not so fancy boats. Thanks for the offer maybe someone plans to build a nice drakkar?

Santi Pérez wrote:Congratulations, erpapishulo, a great and very interesting project. :thumbup:

I have a curiosity: which is the origin of your nick? It sounds like the linguistic deformation with which an Andalusian would pronounce the Spanish words "El papi chulo" (literally, "the cool daddy"). :drool:

Best regards.

Santi.


Como va todo Santi ! Muchas gracias por el apoyo.. el papi chulo, no lo pensé mucho la verdad jajaj
muy chula la conversión del remero!


C M Dodson wrote:Have you considered balsa wood for your construction?

It’s wood so therefore grained and planking with. Sharp knife is easy to ‘draw’.

Best wishes,

Chris


Hi Chris!I have considered It would be easier and would have a nicer look but I love the idea that with just a bunch of paperboard everybody could build anything...also the balsa's price kinda scares me hahah

Cryns wrote:Fantastic drawings again!
But your rowers are postioned the wrong way around.
Rowers always row backwards, with their backs towards the front of the ship.
For now its not too late to turn them.


:o Thanks you so much Cryns don't know what could have happened hah luckly not late at all for correction

Bluefalchion wrote:One of the many things I like about this forum is that contributors here are willing to share when things didn't work and what frustrations and false starts they had to work through. Even a grandmaster still faces challenges and still keeps trying to find areas to improve. So don't be discouraged if your projects do not turn out exactly as you envisioned they would do. Each try is a journey in and of itself, and every completed work, no matter how flawed, is another step forward in the journey.


Thanks Bluefalchion! yes the process isn't always smooth or easy


Well, gonna show the advances

making the pieces for the bow and stern ...someone know the names of this elements?

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starting with the hull

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continuing the ribs and making at the same time the horizontal beams

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Also adjusting the hull's planks

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And trying to visualize the heights I started to finish the hull letting a tiny space for the padllers and a bigger one for the oars. Above the deck level I wanted to make a wicker barrier , a pretty common and cheap material in the east faction and then the bronze shields.

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Hope you guys like it!!
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erpapishulo  Cameroon
 
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