Miniatures News

Pirates !!!

Posted by Beano Boy on 01 Nov 2016, 15:43

Opinion seems often to rule even here upon this Forum.
It costs these guys time and money to do what they do,
so they believe they have a right to recast and sell.
The bottom line in Copyright Law dictates that they do not. BB
Beano Boy  England
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Posted by Phersu on 02 Nov 2016, 00:04

I heard about few bad behaviours or at least arguable acts in our job, which in some cases and beyond some limits perhaps can be considered controversial or just very annoying... and of course I don't mean just possible misunderstandings or human mistakes.
But I never heard of such fraudolent outrageuos behavior before!
Futhermore in a public place, where they really don't risk just the deserved legal troubles... if you know what I mean. I'm not sure I would keep calm and civilized if would see copies of my figures sold without permission from someone I don't know. :sparta:

I heard a couple of times about fake copies of old rare collection figures sold on e-bay... at very expensive (crazy in my opinion) prices.
And this is the only consolation, my dear friend Alex... such bastard cares only for money and of course do this only with most valuble and best quality figures, they didn't choose you purely by chance, they pick within the best figures.

Such thieves must pay, and sure they will in a way or another, even if they would not be legally persecuted... the Earth is big but the figures world is little!
Just wait that people around discover who are these thieves, and I guess their reputation will collapse as their sales!
and they will bloody deseve it!

Sorry for my angry relief, I can stand most everything... but I get furious when a friend is damaged from such useless parassites!
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Posted by mickey mouse on 02 Nov 2016, 00:47

What a bastard!!! Those people should be prosecuted by law! If I ever see such sellers, I'll try to warn the organisation. Hagen do sells some 1/35 kopie figures for me, but it is made with the permision and knowing of the manufacturer. So in this case, it is legal.
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Posted by Fredericus-Rex on 02 Nov 2016, 06:35

I'm still for it, here in the forum to set up a category "Product Pirates".
This Pirates save a lot of time and money if they use figures from other company`s. And sold the figures, with changes, as her own product. The decent figure manufacturers pay the figure from the wireframe to the finished modeling. But as long as the greed is determined the deal will hardly change.
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Fredericus-Rex  Germany

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Posted by Alex on 02 Nov 2016, 09:33

Hi , my friend !
Our earth is - Round (Russian proverb)
These guys have long been engaged in his craft. Here is a post about them for a long time. Be careful on these conventions
http://www.network54.com/Search/view/47210/1403487480/The+Evidence+is+in+!!!+Tomasz+the+Pirate+Exposed+!!!++(Very+Pic+Heavy)?term=daisy+trail+boss+pop+gun&page=6071
I can not be sure of the veracity of the last photo on this link, but the actual names of these guys are true.
It is also a pity that probably both of these guys - fairly well-known and good modelers, author of many well-painted models, that is - people for whom their interests is an important part of their lives. :( :(
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Posted by stenfalk on 02 Nov 2016, 10:06

Alex,

i'm sorry you were so much annoyed. I would like to help you, but more than words of regret don't occur to me. :(

What can I do?
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Posted by Alex on 02 Nov 2016, 10:22

Thank you my friend. :yeah:
No, I'm not annoyed at all. The worse the situation, so I'm calmer. 8)
I just want to warn other manufacturers and collectors, whose interests may be affected by piracy activities.
Leo, Conny, thank you!
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Alex  Russia
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Posted by Cryns on 02 Nov 2016, 12:10

Alex I am glad to see you succeeded in finding out more about these Polish pirates.

Fredericus-Rex wrote:I'm still for it, here in the forum to set up a category "Product Pirates".


Yes I agree with you, Fredericus-Rex.
There should be a (anti) Piracy Page at Benno's.
That should be created by our webmasters.
But Benno's Forum has very little taste for negativism. And it will be difficult to keep such a Piracy page positive :eh: (no swearing allowed at this forum but this thread is already full of that)

Alex wrote:It is also a pity that probably both of these guys - fairly well-known and good modelers, author of many well-painted models, that is - people for whom their interests is an important part of their lives.


You have a warm heart Alex. And yes I get your point very well.

Frankzett wrote:O.K. good news, nail their asses


I think for the professionals (sculptors, producers and sellers) there is only the way of the official law to fight Piracy. The other ways will harm your own biznis more than it will help.
But for us, the amateurs, hobbyist and consumers who have not much of a good reputation to loose, there are two other ways to fight piracy.

The first one is the GENTLEMENS WAY:
If one of us is sending these pirates a mail or message to tell them we don't like their way of working, they won't care, I believe that. But if 20 or 100 of us send those messages in an independent way, over a longer period, we can be sure these guys start to feel very uncomfortable. Since these young men are no robots and no psychopaths but people with human feelings like all of us. Do not underestimate the power of psychological pressure. The longer its going on and the more directions that pressure comes from, the bigger the chance such pirates feel so uncomfortable by it, they decide to stop selling illegal stuff and start selling only their legal products again.

The second one is the STREETFIGHTERS WAY:
I have no doubt we can, as a group of fellow hobbyists, destroy some ones taste for piracy and even the existence of his company completely to make our point clear and as a warning to other Pirates. If 20 or 50 of us start sending very big orders to these pirates (80 panzers at once, for thousands of euro's) these pirates count themselves rich and get confused and over-enthousiastic. Then none of us of course actually pay them anything. We just start complaining again and again about our digital payment is refused by the bank. Because they are an unreliable company? A company already known for illegal biznis? If one of us undertakes this kind of action, it won't change anything. But if many of us do this, it will occupy their full time and mind, day and night. And hit them very very hard as soon as we make clear to them their piracy was the origin for their suffering. :mrgreen:

I don't know what ways are acceptable. I would like to hear your opinions.
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Posted by Ben on 02 Nov 2016, 13:27

Let me add my humble opinion to the topic

The first one is the GENTLEMENS WAY:
If one of us is sending these pirates a mail or message to tell them we don't like their way of working, they won't care, I believe that. But if 20 or 100 of us send those messages in an independent way, over a longer period, we can be sure these guys start to feel very uncomfortable. Since these young men are no robots and no psychopaths but people with human feelings like all of us. [b]Do not underestimate the power of psychological pressure.


maybe they are no psychopaths, I´d say they are sociopaths. I doubt even 1000 mails would change there mind. History shows that these guys in particular have just gone deeper.

[
The second one is the STREETFIGHTERS WAY:
I have no doubt we can, as a group of fellow hobbyists, destroy some ones taste for piracy and even the existence of his company completely to make our point clear and as a warning to other Pirates. If 20 or 50 of us start sending very big orders to these pirates (80 panzers at once, for thousands of euro's) these pirates count themselves rich and get confused and over-enthousiastic. Then none of us of course actually pay them anything.


To succeed that way one would have to use false addresses and names! Otherwise I would think that any who would participate in such a scheme would get a court order for payment. It is quite easy and cheap to get that in europe.


So what could help?

Those guys support e.g. armorama if I´m not wrong. If those guys don´t get publicity and attention on review sites they get less orders. If they are banned from modeling shows they sell less. And I doubt they would ever pay any tax for anything they sell on a show.

well those ware my thoughts to the matter
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Posted by despertaferro on 02 Nov 2016, 14:08

Hi all,

Dear Mr. Cryns, in my opinion, the gentlemen way is the only acceptable way.

If we were talking about a matter of life or death, or essential human rights were in danger, I wouldn’t say that any way could be acceptable. But, with all due respect for people harm by these “pirates” actions (can we change that name, the pirate party have all my sympathies… :-D ), this is not the case. The only consequence of doing unethical actions against unethical acts, is to increase the dose of dishonesty. And I think we had enough of this on this world.

I have not all the information, but… How popular this page is in terms of visitors, regarding the miniature fans world? Maybe we’re doing the most effective thing we can do here, talking about this matter, spreading information about… Sooner or later this noise would reach their ears… If it not is already happening…
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Posted by Ben on 02 Nov 2016, 14:42

@despertaferro

As far as I understand it they originally began selling recasted tanks themed 1946. then they began changing little details here and there, combined other kits.

That was one label!

Now the same persons act under three labels.

And from what I read they want to begin an accessory line.

That can mean a lot, from tools up to figures.

I once had one of their kits in hand. For me it was of no good quality. The details weren't sharp.

They have expanded their vehicle range extensively since their beginning. How many oh those are actually recasts? I honestly don't know. But their behavior suggest that very little could actually originate from their own ideas or doing
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Posted by Alex on 02 Nov 2016, 15:03

They accept online orders openly or through personal acquaintance? :shock: :shock:
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Posted by Frankzett on 02 Nov 2016, 15:35

I remember that I read this a time ago on a link with the "missing lynx" forum.
@ all
Frankzett wrote:
O.K. good news, nail their asses

I am not Wyatt Earp, I agree with the gentleman way, of course! :mrgreen:

Greetings
Frank
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Posted by Beano Boy on 02 Nov 2016, 16:34

It would be great if all could do this.

Image

From Pinocchio and Jiminy Cricket

Give a little whistle........Always let your conscience be your guide

Now the irony is guys, the Picture is protected under Copyright Law.
But I needed to express a point very few would see as relivant. So my hands are up yes I did use it without permission ,but all can see it was not for any gain that I might expect to receive.So if asked
of course I will remove it.

The Activity Begins_________________you might know of it well.

Someone out there is very busy cutting up toy figures,sticking up differing poses from the originals, Making moulds,and casting them up in molten white metal. "Gosh! burn`t myself again." He declares to himself, and those in range enough to hear it. Lets call him Mr ? shall we?

A tap on his shoulder

"Hello Jiminy,"______" Hi Mr ?, do you have permission to do that?"
"Doing what Jiminy?"____________" Recasting ?"_______ "Not really Jiminy."______"Well that's not legal to do such a thing.So have you got anything to say about your activity?" Jiminy asked Mr ?, half expecting that there would be total silence upon the matter.

However there was not ,and Mr ?, replies.

"I make them up into special figures much better than they were before,They are for my own use, and also I sell them too,but I`m no Pirate! Mr?, replied to Jiminy`s question. ____ " You certainly are an Artist Mr ? So why not sculpt your very own figures from start to finish. I can clearly see that you could." Jiminy ask`s him._____ " Oh I`m far to busy working my day job and have a family to support as well. However in 10 or 20 years of learning I might be able to."
" So in the mean time I`ll continue to make them for my own use and I`ll sell them too.But I`m no Pirate.
Jiminy Cricket,shrugs his shoulders and disappears.

The moral is Mr? has no conscience at all upon the subject of Copyright Law.

The Wheel of Time Turns

So 20 years from now he makes his first figures from their heads down to the metal base the feet stand upon. "Oh my I`m going to get rich producing these", he declares to everyone.

Jiminy Cricket see`s Mr ?,upon his way to somewhere very important.

Hello Mr ?,where are you off to with your face so full of smiles?"
____" Hello Jiminy,I`m off to get Copyright protection upon my new figures."
___" But what for Mr?,Jiminy Cricket asked in puzzled wonderment while scratching his head.
____ "Pirates Jiminy,No one is going to rip my work off"

They are on the Forum,
and no brush upon a new set up Pirate page is going to sweep then off because opinion seems to rule. BB
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Posted by Wiking on 02 Nov 2016, 16:43

Yes I follow this "Story" at "missing lynx, braille scale" too.
In very short words.
One person copy Dragon, ESCI models and add some things to it. Call it his work. Then another one copy his work and add some things too. Then the first was angry. Post his copied work (added with not so nice words) to the Braille Scale forum.
But what happen in the end ?
The first one was banned from the Braille Scale forum.
And this forum finally lost a small but high quality Russian 1/72 producer and supporter of this forum.
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Posted by Ben on 02 Nov 2016, 17:31

Russian? Does he just live in Bulgaria?

Maybe they will use his tracks too when they get better at casting?
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Posted by Wiking on 02 Nov 2016, 17:46

@Ben
My fault. You are right Bulgaria.

This man use his tracks. He simply copy it. And the biggest joke (negative) till today for me was what he talked about the bad quality of the tracks. Then he was banned at Braille scale forum.
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Posted by Peter on 03 Nov 2016, 21:37

Okay, I'll take my horse and gun and join the posse! :cowboy:

Sorry to hear this Alex, and I will keep my eyes open at CRISIS. If they can come to Eindhoven they might be in Antwerpen to! ;-)
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Posted by mickey mouse on 03 Nov 2016, 21:40

Peter wrote:Okay, I'll take my horse and gun and join the posse! :cowboy:

Sorry to hear this Alex, and I will keep my eyes open at CRISIS. If they can come to Eindhoven they might be in Antwerpen to! ;-)

I'm afraid they will attend in Antwerp too, Peter.
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Posted by Peter on 03 Nov 2016, 21:43

mickey mouse wrote:I'm afraid they will attend in Antwerp too, Peter.

I can't find them in the sellers list, but maybe they just come to the bring and sell area! For a couple of euros they have a table there. My eyes will be open! :shock:
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