Miniatures Talk

body Sculpture

Posted by poky on 23 Oct 2016, 17:39

Mr. Cryns wrote:Poky thanks for sharing your expertise with us.



I did not know any other sculptors from the Netherlands except Franznap. You understand you made me very curious so I tried to find your sculpts and found them here. So you work with Valdemar!

http://midnightgreys.blogspot.nl/search/label/sculpting


hope you did not search for long, link is under my name, the little globe thingie, but I should have posted the link as well.

and I did not know Franznap was Dutch as well, there is 1 more guy that I know of, his nickname is Ming something, not on this forum, that was back wen I just started I have no idea if he is still active. I do need to explain my job every time I meet someone, a friend of mine did a small photo study of me as well she needed weird jobs so that was me :shock: . yes started working with Valdemar a couple of years ago, also handled a couple of Alex his masters excellent way to study.
anyway 2 figures Im working on at the moment for Masterclass figures.
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poky  Netherlands
 
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Posted by Mr. Cryns on 24 Oct 2016, 11:11

That is great Poky, you do ancients as well.
The sculpting putty you use seems worth to trying soon for me.
Franznap is a born Italian I think but he lives and works near my house here in the centre of our capital. May I ask what is your residence?

poky wrote:a friend of mine did a small photo study of me as well she needed weird jobs so that was me
:yeah: :-D :xd:

Yes I see what you mean. People seem not to realize every little object is designed and made by somebody, even the small sculptures in the souvenir shop and the little people for the model railroad. Usually we never get to see those creators, only when they are designers for Ferrari cars, Rietveld furniture or the inventor and designer of Playmobil .... at the moment he died :(

Masterclass figures, never heard of it, time to find out all about it.
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Mr. Cryns  Netherlands

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Posted by Ben90 on 24 Oct 2016, 19:19

Great work there! MAXIMUS! MAXIMUS! MAXIMUS! :P :thumbup:
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Ben90  Germany
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Posted by poky on 25 Oct 2016, 21:51

Mr. Cryns wrote:May I ask what is your residence?

Masterclass figures, never heard of it, time to find out all about it.

the lovely town of Zwolle

Masterclass, at the moment they only do larger scale stuff, 54mm, 1/16, busts that sort of things and are testing out if smaller scale works for them, I have the honour to sculpt there first set.

thanks Ben its indeed a lookalike, even re watching the movie, but its not a real match I worked of 3 54mm figures but I do think Max was there main source of 1 of them
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Posted by MABO on 26 Oct 2016, 07:10

These figures are great! Please tell us something about your progress. I think a lot of collectors will be interested in your Roman series.
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Posted by Alex on 26 Oct 2016, 10:05

:yeah: Yes, excellent work and a lot of sculptures is also available on the theme of the Middle Ages!
It will be great here to discuss the sculpture techniques. ! :yeah: :yeah:
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Posted by Mr. Cryns on 08 Nov 2016, 12:52

SPINAL OPERATION

This is a 17th century drawing of a 5th century BC relief that has vanished today, depicting a ships pilot (I think) guiding the steering man, and warn him for shallow waters and rocks under the water surface.

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At the beginning of this sculpting masterclass I already prepared a copperwire frame...

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...which was covered by a mixture of Brown Stuff and Magic Sculpt:

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The cork base is covered with superglue to keep bits of cork from sticking to the putty.

Question 1: a figure laying down has much contact with the cork or plastic base. How far do I have to lift the frame before I start sculpting? Or do I not need to lift it at all since the bottom of the figure will be flat anyway?

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When the Green Stuff and Magic Sculpt mix was added, I realised the copper wire frame had very odd proportions. The belly part is much to long. This kind of disproportioning did not happen before. Probably the problem occured because of this man's strange position. Also the lower armpart of the downward arm was too long.

I removed the figure from the cork wit great difficulty:

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And cut it in halve with a side cutter:

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I removed 1 whole centimeter of belly!

Question 2: how to get those two parts together again when the spinal copper wire has been cut?

I could think of 3 ways:
a) Stick them together with some fresh putty
b) Superglue
c) Two tiny metal pins driven into both halves of the body.

I tried way a)

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but after this fresh 100% Green Stuff hardened, the man broke in halve again several times when I used too much pressure.

I used some 100% soft Magic Sculpt to smoothen specific parts and gave him a new face, new hands and feet.

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That upper hand looks pretty big, doesn't it? :eh:

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Mr. Cryns  Netherlands

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Posted by Alex on 08 Nov 2016, 23:42

well, continue.
I think that the primary coating is too thick.
It is rough and sets right the wrong proportions.
I'd Recommend 3 stages
1 primary coating to all parts of Wire (possibly except for the hands) were covered with putty
2 drawing of the main body size (thicker. (Torso, head, the largest muscles.
3 applying putty to finalize the formation of the body.
In general - a pose that "lying" - the most difficult. I do not have a universal recommendation - it is better to do. I think that first it is necessary to make the lower part of the body, adjacent to the base, then good to strengthen the basis of the figure, and then continue with the formation of the upper part of the figure of the body.
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Posted by Beano Boy on 09 Nov 2016, 01:05

First of all I wish to commend you on your work thus far Mr.Cyns. :thumbup: You are doing well.

Along the pathway of learning,
innovation of new ideas have to be explored,
instead of keep tripping over the older ones.

Yes I thought upon the questions you put forward,
and came to the conclusion one must do the base first ,
then the guys butt and work upwards too.

I`m no sculptor ,but I tend to look at things with logic.
I am also thinking that you may not want a base to this figure Mr Cryns ?

If that is correct.
You need something between the cork and the figure.


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Perhaps make a false base from Oyumaru ?
Nothing sticks to it .
However it will hold your work in place while you work,
and both would easily part.

I will try anything once. ;-)

:mrgreen: "But BB,is a little bit crazy!"

:coffee: I prefer eccentric. BB
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Posted by Frankzett on 09 Nov 2016, 10:38

Indeed a very nice figure!!
Well there are a some interpretations of the sea man of the Lenomant relief of the Acropolis.
http://www.theacropolismuseum.gr/en/con ... ical-times.
This man with his rather unpractical clothing shows an Athenian citizen with his cloak cloth in an very similar way we see it on the red figured vases - the citizens with their Athenian cloaks worn on the naked skin. But we can assume that this unpractical dressing wasn't worn with the all day jobs of the citizens and as campaign dress.
We see the cone hat too, may be an everyday accessoirs, but in the history of art, this is a convention to show Odysseus with his cone hat - so this man shows an Athenian mariner, experienced and crafty like Odysseus (- of course!-) on the trireme giving instructions to the helmsman at the aft deck.
And he isn't laying cushy there; we have to consider that all the sailors, hoplites and officers on a trireme HAVE TO SIT DOWN, lay down or have at least stay on their place while cruising, to hold a stable center of gravity.

I agree vith Alex, the first coating with putty is too thick especially at the wrists and ancles, but the problems with the Arms - I think - is the thick double twisted wire of the arms.
And yes the pelvis and waist I think they are the most complex body parts to sculpt!

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Posted by Alex on 10 Nov 2016, 08:11

Regarding the complexity of manufacturing reclining or sitting on his knees figure. The only problem is that an awkward access to many surfaces. I prefer in this case that's a board in which a hole is drilled. Skeleton has long limbs and they are fixed or extracted from the board as required.
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In this topic we discuss technology of a small sculpture.
Questions about the plastic anatomy - it separately.
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Posted by Alex on 10 Nov 2016, 10:19

In the future, there is the addition of body volume and surface of the elaboration of details.

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Posted by Susofrick on 10 Nov 2016, 10:24

This is one of the most interesting topics on this forum! Huge thanks Mr Cryns, Frankzett, Alex and all the others that contribute to it!
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Posted by Mr. Cryns on 10 Nov 2016, 14:17

Gentlement thank you very much for the replies. And for your positive words motivating to continue the long way of learning how to sculpt. I am glad to see I am not the only ones who is interested in the continuation of this masterclass. :thumbup:

Alex thank you so much for the clearifying pictures. It looks like you went to your countryhouse again where your camera was left behind last month. Glad no burglar took it (thats what would happen in The Netherlands if a camera is left behind in cabin or holiday house)

Nice lady with huge ass. :-D :notworthy: :love: But now I wonder:
It looks like her right arm and elbow is sticking to the board.
How do you get that separated again?

My hands and feet keep breaking off the ankles and wrests all the time when I remove my sculptures from both plastic cork and natural cork. I had to fix many of them using super glue. This is a problem that will not occure when a figure has a base or both hands touching body&clothing.

Alex wrote: the primary coating is too thick

Yes you are right I should have removed at least some at ankles and wrists by knife scraping before adding the green stuff.

Alex wrote:first it is necessary to make the lower part of the body, adjacent to the base, then good to strengthen the basis of the figure

Good advice, I will try it this way next time.

Beano Boy wrote:make a false base from Oyumaru

I do like this idea. Did anyone try this before?

Frankzett wrote: the thick double twisted wire of the arms.

I stopped doing that last month. I am sorry I am still presenting here some double wire frames with brown stuff primal layer that I made already in september before Alex proposed not to do that anymore.

Beano Boy wrote:you may not want a base to this figure Mr Cryns ?

Yes that is correct, all I am making at the moment is figures to add to models of ships, ladders, houses etc.
Kostis already gave me the advice to produce figures with a proper base. But then I have to remove that after casting the copies. If it was soft plastic, that would be no problem at all. But I cast in resin which will make feet and hands break when removing the base I think.

Frankzett :notworthy: for adding historical background. I think I copy that to my Tyrus Topic. There is a better place to talk about those subjects. Only this one I like to reply on here:

Frankzett wrote:HAVE TO SIT DOWN to hold a stable center of gravity.

That is why I made these sitting figures during this masterclass:
When I removed this one, one of his hands broke.

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I tried to improve hands and feet. Last night I tightened ankles and wrests.

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But then the brown stuff primal layer gets visible and even the copper wire.

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These dollies will be dressed soon in chitons or groin cloths.

Also I finished my kneeling man that I want to use for untying ropes on deck or cooking a meal at the beach.

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Alex your example with the long copper wires under the knees was very succesfull for me. :lol: But now there is another thing:

How to remove the copperwire that is visible at knees and wrests? I can file it with a diamondfile but then the wire may break and the leg gets weak again.
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Posted by sansovino on 10 Nov 2016, 17:41

What an impressive amount of work which you have done! I like your figures and theirs authentic mediteranen noses!
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Posted by Kostis Ornerakis on 10 Nov 2016, 21:25

First of all a big bravo for for rising standards of your figures. :thumbup:
As far for safe removing from bases use a cutting wheel with your Dremel and cut the BASE as close you can to the figure. Then go on with an apropriate bit to finish. ;-) :-D
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Posted by Beano Boy on 11 Nov 2016, 02:00

As I studied your pictures placed here Mr Cryns,I supposed you and others use a drawing,
A Template to aid getting the proportions correct.
Well that would seem the logical first step before making the armatures up.

As an Engineer I would look at it as setting up a production line.

For large amounts of figures to save time I would take that Template further,
by making a simple jig up. So no measurements would be required. Just wire placed into it and twisted,and cut. Perhaps with tiny soldering points in that process of making armatures up.

Of course I can see that arms and legs can be left longer for minor adjustments later,
and as fixing points in the cork bottle top.
Slight alterations can alter the height of figures too by cutting.

I see the Template as being a simple drawing of a Match Stick man,
but one that would avoid body parts that are far to long, large or short.
By doing this I would be all geared up with making tiny people poses,
but not to sculpt them I would pass them onto those skilled in that direction to do that work,
like on a factory production line.

I suppose armatures can be bought?

Once an armature has been altered ( Bent ) into the required pose, it can be fixed into the cork or wood for support.
Then the torso, head, arms, hands, bottom, legs and feet can all be filled in before finer detail work begins.Well this is what I would do._______________Just my mediocre input to help. :-D BB
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Posted by Alex on 12 Nov 2016, 09:46

Mr. Cryns -First - I want to say that I was very right past your figure and I am sure that your talent and your persistence - those 2 horses in a chariot of victory.
Secondly I would say relative proportions, in particular, and what Beano Boy said.
I have not never seen a perfect figure in our scale. In all there were any flaws. So we are on the path to perfection.I did not get to do the "perfect skeleton" and then bring this work to the end as well. Ie in the theory, it's all right, but our role is played by the scale of 1 mm (0.5 mm or more often) You're wrong only 1 mm and your figure turns ugly. We reserve the longer limbs in skeleton to attach the base of s here already laid dispropotsii problem. We make thicker or more thin body - and if the skeleton is made in advance, then it it can be hand longer or shorter than necessary.
Therefore, to "step skeleton" I'm doing only approximate proportions.
Further, these proportions are adjusted all the time. Therefore, a number of musicians have a tuning fork to tune notes, I have a figure of firms Preiser always figure (the same for many years), and periodically compare with it at various stages of all proportion
And the base of the carcass.
Yes, to a wooden base also possible adhesion. But as I put and take off from this base several times, it can be controlled . Sometimes, to better figure was fixed, I can bend the wire from the bottom, under the board
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These pins I keep up to the last stage, and then delete them.
And I treat these places via a needle files, as Kostis said drill using
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Posted by Mr. Cryns on 12 Nov 2016, 13:12

Thank you all.

Alex that is very good idea and picture, to clip the wire at the bottom side of the board to fasten the figure.

Beano Boy wrote:I supposed you and others use a drawing

No in fact I never do. Most figures are made even without an example picture. It just exists in my head, then I recreate the idea in copper wire and in putty.
But if examples from art are used by me, I show them together with my figure, like the ships pilot. During the proces I do use example pictures for specific muscles and bodyparts.

Alex wrote:these proportions are adjusted all the time.

That is what I do too. I normally use standard lengths for legs, spine and arms.
I do not measure these with a measuring tool. I just know which part of my flat tongues I have to use to decide where the copper has to be bended.

Beano Boy wrote: a simple jig up. So no measurements would be required. Just wire placed into it and twisted,and cut.

A good idea BB. :yeah:

Alex wrote:I have a figure of firms Preiser always figure (the same for many years), and periodically compare with it at various stages of all proportion

I use an old almost naked Esci Barbarian figure which in fact has pretty fat limbs and heavy torso but these are also a good example for how and where to sculpt muscles. But not for the poses since most of these figures are too flat to my taste (thats because of molding reasons)

Kostis Ornerakis wrote: for safe removing from bases use a cutting wheel with your Dremel and cut the BASE as close you can to the figure. Then go on with an apropriate bit to finish.

Thanks, very good. :yeah: Destroy the cork. It must be my Dutch Calvinism that made me try to save the cork and not waiste anything at all. :-D
Destroying the cork means we have to drink even more wine :eh:
So looking at it from that perspective, its a :-) very bad :P advice, Kostis!

WHAT COMES FIRST?

The body or the objects?

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My last figure from the brown stuff series I started in september was based on an Etruscan decorative copper engraving. Also one of two sitting men was inspired by this picture.

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It seemed logical to me to finish the body sculpture first and add objects afterwards.

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But thinking about the sculpting of hands, I figured it should be much more easy to add the objects first and sculpt hands around them. That saved me from the difficult sculpting of free, open hands. So I first added the objects and then sculpted the hands.

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Head and final layer of objects were made in gs & ms mix.
I smoothened the bs & ms mix body with 100% ms putty.

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Apart from not using brown stuff anymore, I wonder about what comes first:
First finish objects in all detail before adding them to human body?
Or first add rough objects and finish human hands and fine object detailing in one flow?
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Posted by poky on 12 Nov 2016, 20:26

there is some many things to comment about but I will keep it short.
I use beer corks instead of wine corks, bigger bottles of Belgian beer still use them, beer corks are bigger then wine corks and easier to handle, I also like beer more then wine so that is a plus as well, I asked a friendly barmaid to save a couple, well couple where 30 or so and now 10years later still use the same and plenty to spare. wen I need a bigger surface I cut it length wise and works great for horses and figures that are lying. wen I need to sculpt parts that I cant reach I remove the figure of the base and sculpt it holding it.
I cover the top with putty this gives a nice flat surface, do use a flexible putty for this, greenstuff or procreate works fine, wen I need to remove the figure I use a sharp scalpel and slice under the feet and around the wire then pull out the figure.
weapons and the likes I make as a separate piece, I lot of the time I need more then 1 rifle or sword so need to cast them anyway, then I pin and or super glue it to the wire where the hands will be, after that I sculpt the hands around this gives extra strength as well.
I think its a good idea to use more flexible putty if things keep breaking off, its even possible to repose the figure a tiny bit after sculpting with out breaking the figure
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