Italeri french limber

[ADM]

Thank you for these information DODSON ! the problem is that this french ammo limber of the Napoleonic period exist for real today (it's not the 1827 model, we can see many differences in the details) but there's no information about it remaining, so the only thing is about testimony of soldiers.

This limber like any others french is a A frame below the ammo box used as a seat, although slightly modified, on the Italeri model you can start to see it but it's too much simplified without details.





In fact this Italeri model is so much simple that it could represent any limber of that kind from others nations with little or no modification.

So I really don't see where's the point of controversy to equip the french artillery with this one, whether it's for a french or a captured model. because the french army had a lot of them.

there's also controversy about which kind of green was used for the french artillery, there's a lot of possibilities because the tone was somewhat free, but 2 models with their genuine painting still exist today :

http://www.10escadron.com/forum/viewtop ... ad6cb1e1be

So it could be an endless fight for nothing, better let the artist sitting inside each of us decide which choice to make because history doesn't have anymore the answer.

[C M Dodson]

Hello and thank you for your, at least on a first reading,somewhat assertive reply.

Please be under no misunderstanding. My comments and thoughts are meant, like others before me, to be constructive, informed and helpful to a fellow modeller.

There is no ' endless fight' involved here, only suggestions based on knowledge, experience, research and a love of the period developed over forty years.

Happy modelling.

Chris

[MABO]

I would underline as well that the Italeri model is not correct. I have done some research as well and I think Chris and C M are right.

[Chris]

Excuse me if you think we disturbing your topic, It's not my point. sorry about that !
It's not a endless discussion, I'm happy to see that some other people have interest in french artillery.

If you want we can go on in PM.

I'm not saying I'm right, just that at my knowledge, French Arty never adopted this kind of limber.
Lots of foreign limber were used I agree, but from what I see when I look the Italeri limber, I can't see the likeness with another limber of that time (unless you modified it a lot).
The problem is Italeri is just offering this limber, as if it was THE french limber. IMHO it is not representative of french artillery during that time...

In the 1809 & 1819 edition of the "Aide-Mémoire de l'artillerie", Gassendi (who was general inspector of artillery) talks about "seated limber", saiyng we should create a model like this.

In an memory from 1818 (kept in military archive in Vincennes, GR 4W220), Foucault, a artillery officer, spying on Britsh artillery camp in Douai makes a whole description with drawings of the british limber. Saying French artillery should adopt this kind of limber "which was never adopt before".
I have several other primary sources talking about seated limber, wurst, especially during french revolution, nothing seems to be truly adopted and produce in great number.

Just after 1815, a royal ruling orders to come back to the gribeauval system from pre-revolution (except for the 4pdr gun and some howitzer), at that time a statement is made in all french arsenal, lots of foreign still appears, nothing is said about limber, but we can presume there were some of them. So if you want to represent a foreign limber captured and used it's ok, but even with that idea I don't which nation it is the limber from.

Your reflexion about the color is really true, it's another subject of questions. (as I am colorblind I will not go on this subject)
Funny thing the two pieces your talking about and which are in your link are in a museum in Lille, where I work...
In spite of what was said these two 4pdr where repainted in 19th century and in the 80's... wheels from the carriage and the limber were remade... I still have the paint bucket in the workshop...

Even if the paint was truly from Nap era, color is darkening with the time, it differs if you look at it with natural or artificial light...

[MABO]

Thank you once more for these interesting facts. I have read some of the books of Patrice Courcelle. He illustrated what you describe here.

[Chris]

About color, from what I know about surviving piece on their original carriage.


4 pdr gun, (two pieces), in Musée des Canonniers, Lille (France), repainted in the 80's


4pdr gun (rifled in the middle of the 19th), in Museu Nacional Militar, Lisboa (Portugal), Repainted???
They also have an howitzer, I don't have any photos


L'aglaure, 6 pdr (on a mix carriage, half prussian half french), in Musée de L'Armée, Paris (France), repainted in the 2000's


Le Drôle, 12pdr (on a damaged carriage), in Musée de l'Armée, repainted in the 2000's (I think), newly restored, don't have any photos yet


12pdr,in Musée de l'Armée, repainted in the 2000's
Now in display in Valmy battle history center (France) bellow



12pdr, in Fort Nelson (UK), Certainly a remade carriage as all the piece captured by the british and in display in the Tower of london or Wellington museum (Carriage were burnt in a fire I think)


Le Brouillon, 8pdr, in Suvorov Memorial Museum, St Petersburg (Russia), Original carriage with some restoration, original color ???


6pouces howitzer, in Musée de l'Armée, Paris (France), bad condition carriage, maybe in original color...but what's left of the color...


Ammunition Caisson (two pieces), in Musée de l'Armée, Paris (France), was used in the Franco-Prussian War in 1870, seems to be in his original color


Caisson, in Bundeswehr Museum, Dresden (Germany), fairly complex caisson, used as ammunition caisson but seems to be a former tools caisson, iron works were made in Italy... Maybe in his original color...

I was used to paint my carriage in different color...as seen below



Hope this help...

[ADM]

"I'm not saying I'm right, just that at my knowledge, French Arty never adopted this kind of limber." "Chris"

of course and I agree with that, there's no record of such limber being adopted but still this model exist and is dated from the Napoleonic period, they well could have made only one of them or 50 or more, we don't know. it could have been used by some units.

It was my point to make you see that regulation isn't a reliable source for a complete inventory of the french army, and the color of the french gun was a good example if we compare to what is said in regulation about it, we can even find some light grey green on artist painting from that period while the color was "gros vert" which mean fat green or big green, it's a dark green close to olive green. In reality we find every tone of this green on guns, from very light to deep dark.

I still believe the Italeri model is good to use, it's not that far from reality.

[ADM]

Not to mention that this model could also be an hybrid made of a french made limber on which could be fixed a Russian/Prussian/Austrian caisson captured, we can find in the french army such mix with guns, a french tube mounted on a foreign carriage or the contrary.

[MABO]

Yes everything is possible, that is right. But let me ask you why you are so hooked on the Italeri-Model? There are much more canons and limbers that seems to be closer to the daily life of the French artillerymen in 1812. But anyway. You must do what you like and thinking on the Pacific TOW, the result will be stunning. I am really looking forward to follow this. And btw my collection started with Nappies and I have painted the Italeri Limber as well.

[ADM]

I find this Italeri set attractive and we were not the only ones to buy it because it was reissued by Zvezda and Revell.

it's a good way to represent the french horse artillery being identifiable at the first glance on the battlefield, when you're playing with several hundreds or thousands figures and guns on a table, it's good not to look at their collar to see to which unit they belong !

I haven't painted yet this set but I'm sure the result will be great, I like the figures of this set, especially the 2 sitting figures, it could be a pity not to use them.

By the way those limbers will be a minuscule part of my project, I'm working on it everyday but having much more figures to paint than my last project, it take time to prepare these figures for painting, the start is slow but the result will be great !

[Ragnar]

I really like this Italeri set, have tried a few times to put the thing together but just to fiddley!
Will try again as Its a stunning set and cant wait to paint it...I think it was Blucher1815 red who did a whole bunch of these?....they looked great.