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A new brand of roman figs !

Posted by Chariobaude on 24 Nov 2017, 23:00

Maybe some of you know my comitatus gaulois project : recreate the western roman army at the beginning of the fifth century.
After 30 units and 1200 painted figurines, I encountered an unexpected difficulty: boredom.
Not the one related to the project, but the lack of diversity of my figurines. They come almost all from the dozens of confections from 3 manufacturers (Hat, Italeri, MiniArt).
After exploring the possibilities of conversion, I realized that it was not enough.
It's the technology that has come to my aid, allowing me to realize my craziest dream: to create my own miniatures.
[disclaimer : if you don't want to read and just see the minis, just click on this link and meet the mighty legio secunda britannica, the fierce Brittons legionaries]

We are living a revolution with 3D printing. It is now possible to design, produce and paint the figurines that we want, without having to depend on the choices (questionable) of the manufacturers, their inexplicably long rythm or their artistic direction, not to mention the historical accuracy often superficial of their work.
Thanks to a friend from Marseille, a real specialist in the field, I was able to devote myself to the part I prefer: to research to design the most accurate figurines historically.
But that was not my only goal: I wanted more natural, more original poses. I was inspired by a multitude of works, illustrations, reenactors ...
For instance, a great illustration ....
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And my version...
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the two archer in the middle are from italeri... the two with bowstrings... from me ! :-D
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an another exemple of a source of inspiration :
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the 3D file (without crest) :
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So i've done 28 new minis, and some extra shield with the same pattern in order to equip italeri late romans. I must say that even if the result is still imperfect (especially the strength of the weapons: 80% of the spears were broken by manipulating the figures!), I am delighted, and I will continue in this way!
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Chariobaude  France
 
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Posted by Wiking on 25 Nov 2017, 06:32

You do the right thing.

The archer is a winner. Only that he get a bowstring make him minimum 50% more realistic.
Also the pose of the hand to hold the arrow is better.

Your standing commander is a typical pose. But he look to me more useful in size as the too big Italeri figure.
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Wiking  Germany
 
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Posted by Fredericus-Rex on 25 Nov 2017, 12:17

Nice figures, but why the archers have the arrows of the wrong site of the bow.
When you draw the bow with your right hand, the arrow belongs to the left side of the bow. When you draw the bow with your left hand, the arrow belongs to the right side of the bow.
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Fredericus-Rex  Germany
 
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Posted by Paul on 25 Nov 2017, 14:24

Fredericus-Rex wrote:but why the archers have the arrows of the wrong site of the bow.
When you draw the bow with your right hand, the arrow belongs to the left side of the bow. When you draw the bow with your left hand, the arrow belongs to the right side of the bow.

Always?
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The medieval ones could be misinterpretations by the Artist although there are quite a few such examples so maybe it was more common and possibly less of an misinterpretation and more accurate . Asian and eastern europeans tend to do the opposite to When you draw the bow with your right hand, the arrow belongs to the left side of the bow
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Left handed archer with arrow on left side of the bow

Right handed with arrow on right side

This guy uses a bow both left and right handed and places the arrow on the "wrong side" of the stave..which, in mounted archery is a more stable way of placing the arrow.
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Paul  China

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Posted by FredG on 25 Nov 2017, 14:46

Practical research says right is better on a right handed bow and more historically correct (according to this video)

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FredG  United Kingdom
 
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Posted by Fredericus-Rex on 25 Nov 2017, 14:58

I am an archer, only in japan the arrow is placed on the side of the pull hand.
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Posted by Paul on 25 Nov 2017, 15:18

Fredericus-Rex wrote:only in japan the arrow is placed on the side of the pull hand.

Really!? So the Mongols, egyptians didn´t and Hungarians, Koreans, Turks etc don´t loose the arrow from the side of the pulling Hand and ignoring the above..only the japanese? :eh:
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Paul  China

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Posted by Paul on 25 Nov 2017, 15:22

FredG wrote:Practical research says right is better on a right handed bow and more historically correct (according to this video)


Historically correct particually for eastern european and asian styles. Unfortunately he´s got a lot of slagging off on YouTube etc by People ignoring or ignorant of any evidence he provides, particually western european style bowmen (women)
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Paul  China

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Posted by Ben90 on 25 Nov 2017, 15:23

@Fredericus Rex: Well, but on medieval (european) pictures the arrow is often placed on the side of the pull hand. Modern archers place the arrow on the left side of the bow to be able to aim with the eyes. But when having a medieval war-bow, this is not possible because of the draw-weight. There is no classical aiming, only shooting by experience. I think it is impossible to say what is wrong and right just by looking how archers do it nowadays...
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Ben90  Germany
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Posted by Paul on 25 Nov 2017, 15:32

Some modern archers also place the arrow on the "Wrong side" of the stave due to having a dominant left eye. My son holds the stave in hs right Hand even though he´s predominantely right handed and places the arrow on the left of the stave as his left eye is more dominant. I use a Long bow in the western "modern" style but with lighter bows it works both ways around and it just Needs a bit of adjustment to hit the target.
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Posted by Jaques on 25 Nov 2017, 15:34

Very Nice work.
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Posted by Bill Slavin on 25 Nov 2017, 17:01

The great "arrow side" debate put aside, the figures are brilliant! The prospect of creating your own figures is very exciting and it it's remarkable we now have that technology available. Whether my 3 design skills would be up for the task is another question....
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Posted by sberry on 25 Nov 2017, 17:43

Fantastic! This is really a great project!
I always suspected that the new 3D modeling and printing techniques sooner or later would transform our hobby thoroughly. And to work on those subjects, which are really underrepresented, like Late Romans, is a very reasonable choice.
Have you thought about making these figures commercially available?
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sberry  Germany
 
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Posted by Wiking on 25 Nov 2017, 21:09

Thank you FredG for the interesting video.
My college at work do archery (Remember the Dio "Meisterlich") . He told me in the past something about, recurve bow with rolls. And he stand still during archery.
If I show him this video - he will change his hobby. :-D

But we should not forget that today the bow as the arrow use Hi Tec lightweight materials like carbon fiber, titanium, alloy, plastic to name only a few.
But IT IS impressive 3 arrows in 0.6 sec.

In Lord of the rings there was a battle scene with Legolas sliding on a shield step down and doing so firing several arrows.
Till I saw this video I thought not possible.

I am sorry, totally off topic.
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Wiking  Germany
 
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Posted by Fredericus-Rex on 26 Nov 2017, 09:39

Hello,
Here again a few pictures on the subject, as it has left me no rest.
Bow Hungarian Equestrian Bow: Extract length 28 inch: Draw weight 50 LBS

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Distance to the Target 10m.

Experiment 1: Pull arm left, arrow on the right side of the bow. Arrows 4 pcs, all the same length and spin value

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Experiment 2: Pull arm left, arrow on the left side of the bow. Arrows 4 pcs, all the same length and spin value

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And more pictures to the thema:

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Image

Image
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Fredericus-Rex  Germany
 
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Posted by Paul on 26 Nov 2017, 10:48

Still ignoring all evidence to the contrary??
Paul wrote:but with lighter bows it works both ways around and it just Needs a bit of adjustment to hit the target.

The two pics with arrows missing the target due to laying on the right proves only the lack of skill of the archer in not adjusting. In fact...if what is written above pic one and two is correct (I´m assuming it cannot be and Experiment one should be for the second pic and visa versa )..it Shows laying the arrow to the right of the stave is more accurate (?)
How does the guy in the video (amongst many others..including the accepted Japanese style...where, BTW, they are the only Tradition trained from the start to use this method not the only Tradition to do so) hit the target..luck? Tricks?
[/quote]
I assume the top pic of the guy on the horse is a mongolian (?).
Using Mongolian method "Thumb draw" The guy says he has actually seen mongolians laying the arrow to the left of the stave but as demonstrated in this Video..it isn´t as good as the "wrong side" when on horse back

This guy Shows the Advantages of laying the arrow on the same side of the draw Hand and the disadvantages of the opposite, particually when on a horse.

The eastern style (sassanids etc) doesn´t, if the arrow is placed on the left of the stave) allow for the "follow through"

Traditional Korean archery..I think this guy would know wether he was using the correct side or not.

Ooh look..another using the bow incorrectly!!

Back to the original
Paul wrote:
Fredericus-Rex wrote:but why the archers have the arrows of the wrong site of the bow.
When you draw the bow with your right hand, the arrow belongs to the left side of the bow. When you draw the bow with your left hand, the arrow belongs to the right side of the bow.

Always?

Seeing as it obvious that it´s not always "draw the string (my correction) with your right hand, the arrow belongs to the left side of the bow" and that the Romans had had contact with the "eastern style" and probably hired / assimilated such archers into thier army..the sculps are more likely than not to be correct.
Quote from the commitatus web page http://comitatus.net/bows.html
Two types of release can be used. The eastern or Mongolian release may have been used in the east from the 3rd century, with the arrow shot to the right of the bow and the string drawn back by the thumb. The eastern thumb draw uses a thumb ring, however a western or Mediterranean two or three-fingered release seems to have been the general method used in Roman Europe. Arrows were shot to the left of the bow, with the nock of the arrow held between the index and middle finger.

Note; they say, "seems to have been the general method used in Roman Europe" but don´t rule out the Eastern/mongolian method.
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Posted by Chariobaude on 01 Dec 2017, 14:01

Wiking wrote:You do the right thing.

The archer is a winner. Only that he get a bowstring make him minimum 50% more realistic.
Also the pose of the hand to hold the arrow is better.

Your standing commander is a typical pose. But he look to me more useful in size as the too big Italeri figure.



Thank you Wiking ! I share your opinion : a bowstring add so much "reality" !!
Unfortunately the 3D printing technique isn't now compliant for figs with a lot of tiny details : even if you manage to print (like this bowstring), this is REALLY fragile, especially unpainted. It is drying quick and then more fragile than glass....
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Chariobaude  France
 
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Posted by Chariobaude on 01 Dec 2017, 14:02

Fredericus-Rex wrote:Nice figures, but why the archers have the arrows of the wrong site of the bow.
When you draw the bow with your right hand, the arrow belongs to the left side of the bow. When you draw the bow with your left hand, the arrow belongs to the right side of the bow.


Thank you Connie (btw GREAT villa Rustica ;-) ).
WOW, i didn't expect to inspire such a controversy with my creations on archery : this is precisly what i like here : hobby and passion for history :yeah:
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Chariobaude  France
 
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Posted by Chariobaude on 01 Dec 2017, 14:07

Bill Slavin wrote:The great "arrow side" debate put aside, the figures are brilliant! The prospect of creating your own figures is very exciting and it it's remarkable we now have that technology available. Whether my 3 design skills would be up for the task is another question....


Thank you Bill ! Coming from you it is a great compliment ! :oops:
I do believe that our habby will be totally different in the next couple of years ; there is plenty of open source files that can be modificated fo our purposes, and tons of brillaint designer who will (as modders for games) provide creations, obviously cheaper than manufactured products.

Pratically, any pose of any timeframe will be available. At one condition : making research for the designer. But is fun, right ? :xd: :xd:
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Chariobaude  France
 
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Posted by Chariobaude on 01 Dec 2017, 14:12

sberry wrote:Fantastic! This is really a great project!
I always suspected that the new 3D modeling and printing techniques sooner or later would transform our hobby thoroughly. And to work on those subjects, which are really underrepresented, like Late Romans, is a very reasonable choice.
Have you thought about making these figures commercially available?

Thank you !!!

Yes, they are (disclaimer : not by me and i don't earn any money on it), PM if you are interested. The prices are really (i mean REALLY) cheap, but the queue is now big...
I was telling Mr Cryins that this way of producing minis was far more "democratic" than the scuplture model : the first customer (in that case, me) pay for what he precisly wants. But then the designer is free to sell the same minis to others for a very cheap price.
In few words, you pay high to have what you want, low if you just buy what had been already designed.
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Chariobaude  France
 
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