Roman Emperors

[elsi]

Roman Emperors:Augustus,Trajan,Hadrian,Marcus Aurelius
more photos in my blog http://elsibaby.blogspot.ru/
1.Augustus
2.Marcus Aurelius
3.Trajan
4.Hadrian

[Bluefalchion]

Gorgeous! Love the purple. Good faces, too. Thanks for sharing.

[Ben90]

I like the purple as well! Very good job!

[Marvin]

Great figures and an interesting topic.

Hadrian looks just like his statues! You are not going to paint ALL of them, I assume?!!

[Susofrick]

Like them! And I recognize Augustus and his wagon from somewhere, who made these?

[giorgio]

purple... don't know, it seems that there's some cultural misconception about the true nature of this color.
It seems that anglosaxon people mean purple like a kind of violet, while italians (at least) and maybe mediterranean people and, maybe, even ancient mediterranean peoples (like romans) used the term "purple" to indicate something more similar to what anglosaxons call "crimson"... or, at least, this is the common view here, in italy. But it's hard to say. Sure it's really very very strange, for me, to see roman emperors dressed in "violet" instead of "red". However it's a fascinating question. And, of course, the miniatures are wonderful.

[FredG]

[quote="giorgio"]purple... don't know, it seems that there's some cultural misconception about the true nature of this color.quote]

Try this.

[Cryns]

Thank you guys for another discussion about traditional colors. One of my favorite subjects since its the basic knowledge for all who paint historic costumes.


This is the Kermes insect, of which Crimson was made.


And this is the Murex snail, of which Purple was made.

To me it seems like Elsi used violet in stead of purple and also exaggerated his use of highlight color.

On the other hand many graphic artists show a kind of violet that represents Tyrian Purple as used by Macedonians and Persians:


Okay these are no Romans but these are:





Looks pretty much like Elsi's color, doesn't it

What I like to know: Did the Roman Emperors wear purple made of Murex shells? Or crimson made of Kermes insects? Only then we can try to approach the most probable color.

I would love to hear Mr. Berry's opinion, since he is our specialist.

[FredG]

Sorry Mr Cryns that mosaic of Justinian I can't be used to demonstrate the real colour.






Annoying isn't it

[Bluefalchion]

Also, a garment may look a certain way when it is freshly dyed, but what if it has been worn outdoors for months or years? Although I suppose Emperors would get new gear often to display their wealth...

[FredG]

Also, a garment may look a certain way when it is freshly dyed, but what if it has been worn outdoors for months or years?

Tyrian purple does not fade with age, it is believed the purple intensifies rather than fades
That of course means the older cloth looks better

[sberry]

So I am a specialist – well, this is one of the compliments which can become a curse, because what if the so-called specialist turns out to be completely clueless?
But, fortunately, I think I can add a bit of useful information here.

The Romans used both dyes, crimson as well as genuine purple, and in principle they must have had a clear idea of the difference of the hues, otherwise their different use of them would have made no sense: Crimson was the color of the commander-in-chief; e.g. the generals’ cloak was dyed bright red. Purple, on the other hand, was used for a number of purposes, like the broad stripes on the magistrate’s toga and, later, for imperial clothing etc.
But despite this, there is a real mess in the written sources on colors, and a clear distinction between “red” and “purple” was not always maintained.

Enter modern chemistry. Trying to figure out what this legendary Tyrian Purple really looked like, researchers reconstructed that is was chemically a compound named 6,6’-dibromo-indigotin that can be obtained from the purple snails.
This substance is violet with a reddish hue, which can be seen quite well here

And this is the Murex snail, of which Purple was made.

But despite this, things are a bit more complicated. Purple snails can also yield plain indigotin, which is a blue dye – it is exactly the stuff that is used for dying blue jeans. The traditional prayer shawls of rabbis, with the distinct blue and with stripe pattern, are obtained by a “purple” dying process, too.
And the snails can yield also further, related compounds. So the exact result of a purple dying process can depend on
- the exact species of the snails used
- the time of year and location when and where the snails were collected
- the fabric to be dyed
- further details of the dying procedure (like duration, concentration etc.)
In the end, one could obtain a whole range of colors from pinkish to almost black, with the bluish and reddish variants of purple being the most popular ones.

[FredG]

We must be careful with saying that the indigo dye used for denim/jeans has the same derivation as Tyrian Purple. There was an indigo coloured dye produced using snails by the Phoenecians known as Royal Blue but this is different to that used in Denim.

The natural Indigo dye has a vegetative origin (Indigofera tinctoria) and came mainly from India.



Nowadays of course the dye is mainly synthetic.

[sberry]

The chemistry is here (in simplified form):



I’m sorry that the figure is in German, it was originally prepared for this book. The translation/explanation is:
Waid- und Indigofärberei: These are the pathways starting from either Indigofera tinctoria or woad that was known in Europe, in particular used by the Celts for their blue body painting.
Purpurfärberei: The normal pathway of purple dying.
Tekheletfärberei: This is the pathway leading to the blue color tekhelet mentioned already in the Old Testament (red purple was also known, named agarman).
In short, although the details are different, traditionally there were three independent sources yielding the same blue dye – and that is the stuff still used for blue jeans.

[Bluefalchion]

poor elsi!

He posts some great pics of painted Roman Emperors and then this thread becomes a doctoral dissertation on the dying processes of late antiquity! I, for one, love it, though. It gives me the opportunity to pose this question: what color were the Emperor's robes?

[sberry]

poor elsi!

He posts some great pics of painted Roman Emperors and then this thread becomes a doctoral dissertation on the dying processes of late antiquity! I, for one, love it, though. It gives me the opportunity to pose this question: what color were the Emperor's robes?

Well, at least this thread shows that elsi's choice of color is perfectly acceptable in terms of historical accuracy!

The question for the color of the emperor's robes: The basic color for a gentleman with taste and style would have been white. Anything too colorful might appear decadent, feminine or Oriental in Roman eyes - an impression that an emperor should avoid, if possible.
On special occasions like celebrations, other rules applied and a lavish use of purple, for instance, was an option.
This would also apply to military garb, as in the figures shown here by elsi here. Where a normal general might use red, the emperor would of course wear a purple cloak and sash.
It has to be added that we have no strict lists of what was worn by the emperor on what occasion. Rather, this wisdom spread here is a reconstruction emerging from the various fragmentary statements that we have in the sources.

[FredG]

The key word was derivation.
Although at a price of three pounds of gold to one pound of dye ( 3 gold - 1 dye) when that dye is derived from snails it would explain the cost of some branded jeans.

The question for the color of the emperor's robes: The basic color for a gentleman with taste and style would have been white. Anything too colorful might appear decadent, feminine or Oriental in Roman eyes - an impression that an emperor should avoid, if possible.

Purple was worn to show that the wearer was very rich and could afford the extravagance of a very expensive fabric, not because they liked the colour. The hue lost much of its appeal when synthetic dyes meant anyone could have clothes of purple and indigo. ie Mauveine ( aniline purple) and the indigo used in Denim - manual work clothes

[Luke05]

Nice

[Graeme]

A wonderful and very regal looking group of Emperors. The definition in the faces is excellent.

I recognize Augustus and his wagon from somewhere, who made these?

Augustus is from the Orion Gladiators set and the chariot from the Italeri Gladiators set.

[Cryns]

that mosaic of Justinian I can't be used to demonstrate the real colour.

Then please show us a more reliable contemporary image.

Annoying isn't it

Well to be honest: No.
Of course I am aware of the fact that every photograph has its color deviation.
And the more pictures of the same object we compare, the smaller that deviation gets. Thats exactly what you did. So thank you for that.

As you know yourself the first picture can be deleted because there is too much yellow in it.

Look at the face. Look at the white cloth turned yellow.
If we add a lot of yellow to purple, it gets brown, and thats exactly what is seen here.
So.... this picture has gone!

Now lets look at the fourth one:

Looks like there is too much contrast in this picture, especially in the dark tones. Why would an ancient artist use black mosaic stones to depict an imperial cloak?
So.... this picture has gone too!

So we end up with the middle two pictures: both of them show clear purple.
The first one is a purple containing more blue:


The second one containing more red:


Now look at the faces of both fellows: which one looks most healthy?
Exactly, thats also the one with the reddish purple cloak.
The one in the blue-ish purple cloak has a pale white face, which must be an indication for too much red color disappeared from this photograph.
I agree its not as true and clear as maths....
But at least its an indication this emperor is depicted with a purple robe containing pretty much red. Which supports the point Giorgio tried to make.

Which does not tell us much about any other emperors cloak.

Tyrian purple does not fade with age, it is believed the purple intensifies rather than fades

Thats a real weird story. But I believe you since I have no further knowledge about it.

Now I like to thank Mr. Berry for his terrific contribution.

which can become a curse, because what if the so-called specialist turns out to be completely clueless?

Feel free to stay out of a discussion if you don't feel happy with it . But after reading your reply I still believe you are our specialist and you don't just collect your information from the first Google hit you find but from twenty years of writing books and university studies.

Enter modern chemistry.

Fascinating to realize there are at least 3 chemists participating in this forum: Sberry, Michael Robert and Kekso. Coincidential? Or is it because they feel attracted to the many chemicals used for sculpting, casting, gluing, painting and varnishing?

Purple snails can also yield plain indigotin, which is a blue dye – it is exactly the stuff that is used for dying blue jeans.

The natural Indigo dye has a vegetative origin (Indigofera tinctoria) and came mainly from India.

I thought as FredG says here. But talking in terms of chemistry a snail can contain the same basic dye material as a plant I suppose.

So I would like to thank both of you for your extended, very intersting contributions.

poor elsi!

Thanks for guarding the ethic element of this discussion, Bluefalchion
I thought that too: Poor Elsi.
Though at the same time: few posts in Benno's Forum get as many attention as this one by Elsi. Like myself: I watched his work a dozen times now to compare his painting work to the many words said about it.

Thats all FREE PUBLICITY for Elsi, isn't it?