Work in Progress

Catapult Trireme

Posted by Howlin on 11 Aug 2021, 04:51

Here is an oddity but one I hope can be appreciated. Built from a Zvezda Carthaginian warship and custom cuts, it was shortened 4" because I wanted to extend my Imperial command ship.

its meant to be a siege weapon slow and awkward yet protected from other missile weapons and some what resistant to boarding while being weak to ramming. it is basically a floating fort.


Attributes:

slow movement speed

long range catapult: fires 5 shots of heated oil, 1 shot of clay jar filled snakes, and endless rocks from the ballast. range 200 yards= 5 feet.

has weak ramming ability to ships its size or bigger

has a decent boarding party and gate to resist push backs.

resistant to enemy missiles

not fire resistant.


Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image





Taken from artistic inspirations and my own artistic license. As I think all possible forms and variations likely existed and the range of artistic representation in this era leaves room for much speculation.


Image
Image
Last edited by Kekso on 11 Aug 2021, 12:20, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: fixed images size
User avatar
Howlin  United States of America
 
Posts: 253
Member since:
13 Mar 2021, 11:01


Posted by Howlin on 11 Aug 2021, 04:53

Its about to get the milliput treatment so taking feed back before then!
User avatar
Howlin  United States of America
 
Posts: 253
Member since:
13 Mar 2021, 11:01

Posted by Kekso on 11 Aug 2021, 12:21

Please, post larger images in the future... not thumbnails. Thank you.
User avatar
Kekso  Croatia

Moderator Moderator
Supporting Member (Bronze) Supporting Member (Bronze)
 
Posts: 6807
Member since:
19 Oct 2011, 18:32

Posted by Chariobaude on 11 Aug 2021, 15:51

i want to see that ship painted ! :)
User avatar
Chariobaude  France
 
Posts: 302
Member since:
22 Feb 2016, 10:43

Posted by Howlin on 11 Aug 2021, 17:29

sorry, to me they look large except the one, which was the best I could do just to offer my inspiration to any really interested could click on it....
User avatar
Howlin  United States of America
 
Posts: 253
Member since:
13 Mar 2021, 11:01

Posted by Howlin on 11 Aug 2021, 17:39

Thank you!

I am planning for a very simple paint, light wood tones, and aged bronze for the metal trims. dark grey shingles, and maybe some hints of colors on the shields. and I need a flagpole and flag.


I have not decided on a crew for it exactly except for the siege operators, right now there are some Linear A Sammite warriors and I do like the look...

I have a few extra shields and they are rather big so really serve as mobile archer walls, and I have a few extra so will make a few that this ship can deploy in a beach landing (just tucked away in a drawer til if ever used)
User avatar
Howlin  United States of America
 
Posts: 253
Member since:
13 Mar 2021, 11:01

Help keep the forum online!
or become a supporting member

Posted by Ben90 on 11 Aug 2021, 22:12

Your pictures look large because Kekso fixed them, I think :thumbup:

I have never seen a vessel like this before, and it looks more like fantasy to me. But it looks like some interesting fantasy and very promising so far... keep it coming! :yeah: :yeah: :yeah:
User avatar
Ben90  Germany
Golden Brush Winner
 
Posts: 1503
Member since:
28 Apr 2011, 23:32

Posted by Howlin on 12 Aug 2021, 00:43

Ok I did some test and see what link I had posted wrong now.... when using the preview feature its not really clear it became a thumbnail I was just happy to see the picture came though.
User avatar
Howlin  United States of America
 
Posts: 253
Member since:
13 Mar 2021, 11:01

Posted by Howlin on 12 Aug 2021, 00:50

yeah I know it takes a lot of creative liberty, Fantasy but realistic but over hundreds of years and thousands of ships made we only have remains from a handful of ships, some bronze parts, and drawings on pottery and murals. And almost all the artwork has very characterful designs.

If we lost our history today people might only think we only had battleships, sailships, and tugboats, since those are typically depicted on ceramincs, yet the catamaran or ice breaker could get totally lost to history.

I basically made it and it just made itself... once problem offered another solution,
User avatar
Howlin  United States of America
 
Posts: 253
Member since:
13 Mar 2021, 11:01

Posted by Bluefalchion on 12 Aug 2021, 04:17

I am not an expert in ancient maritime craft, but it seems a plausible design to me.

More importantly, you had fun making it and it inspired your passion to create.

What could be better?
User avatar
Bluefalchion  United States of America
 
Posts: 3575
Member since:
23 Dec 2010, 07:57

Posted by Howlin on 12 Aug 2021, 04:41

I think plausible too though wonky in troubled seas, but these battles I take it were fought on nice days, and were not ocean vessels. I was thinking the shields on the side may have been a little much trying to imagine in a storm them buckering. For gaming maybe someone can take advantage of that.

funness on level that keeps the inner child alive! Which is why I want each vessel to have its own character, strengths and weaknesses, and each side will have some asymmetrical tactics as well.

next bonus project will be a fun quierky one too!


Thankfully Zvezda re- released their roman Trireme so they can be available to all, I saw one on ebay go for under 40$ shipped (plus fees) its a great value of a model for that price as far as costly models can go for.
User avatar
Howlin  United States of America
 
Posts: 253
Member since:
13 Mar 2021, 11:01

Posted by Peter on 12 Aug 2021, 08:14

You did a fine job so far Jacob! :thumbup:
User avatar
Peter  Belgium

Moderator Moderator
 
Posts: 22368
Member since:
25 Mar 2008, 18:51

Posted by Susofrick on 12 Aug 2021, 09:18

Also interested in seeing this painted, but more interested in seeing it finished. Hmm, how would the ship react to the throw? Following this!
User avatar
Susofrick  Sweden
Supporting Member (Gold) Supporting Member (Gold)
 
Posts: 7649
Member since:
19 Feb 2008, 12:10

Posted by Howlin on 12 Aug 2021, 10:01

My thoughts are and by all means am no ballistic engineer of the time which was a sophisticated calling.

Basically the whole ship is tied to the engine so it would be fairly stable considering land based machines did not seem to be dug in with a foundation. A dry fire would likely destroy a lot of things but I think 500-700lbs of rocks would just cause the ship to at most bob up and dip down slightly to counteract the centrifugal/ rotational forces. No more than crossing the wake of speedy ship I am making next... The engineers of the time calculated the specific weights of projectiles and strength of needed to keep this in relative proportion and distribution of balast to compensate.


I have a few building projects to get done by fall so I can prime them in good weather and then painting becomes the late fall winter aspects.
User avatar
Howlin  United States of America
 
Posts: 253
Member since:
13 Mar 2021, 11:01

Posted by Howlin on 12 Aug 2021, 10:12

Also, if anyone can decipher what the siege machine is just behind the giant catapult in the last picture I would be really interested in what that is exactly. It almost looks like a giant war club that would hit at a bow of a oncoming ship, but that does not seem practical or have much range.

I know the giant cranes in the far back were to pick up near by ships and drop them hoping to break something.
User avatar
Howlin  United States of America
 
Posts: 253
Member since:
13 Mar 2021, 11:01

Posted by Ben90 on 12 Aug 2021, 14:51

Howlin wrote:Also, if anyone can decipher what the siege machine is just behind the giant catapult in the last picture I would be really interested in what that is exactly. It almost looks like a giant war club that would hit at a bow of a oncoming ship, but that does not seem practical or have much range.


I think you mean the Trebuchets on the far left. These are clearly medieval siege engines and were not seen on ancient ships. The picture looks like some late medieval or Renaissance painting, so this would explain some obvious anachronisms :mrgreen:
User avatar
Ben90  Germany
Golden Brush Winner
 
Posts: 1503
Member since:
28 Apr 2011, 23:32

Help keep the forum online!
or become a supporting member

Posted by Howlin on 12 Aug 2021, 19:43

The depiction itself can be found searching " siege of Syracuse" which happened about 200BC, this painting is a Homage to the inventions or Archimedes. I do think you are right they are more like trebuchets in the distance, and could be part projection from the artist but they did seem to have done some research into the other engines in the picture so we can not rule out they had other sources too from ancient designs. When I was originally foraging for trireme designs this picture came up because it was part of a naval battle and because it is so jumbled I thought they were on rows of ships with different engines on them and were part of the Roman side hitting Syracuse from the sea. Well after further study I was wrong that they were on ships but went with it anyway since catapult siege ships are mentioned but are not really ever shown in surviving art (except for a double bow version with a large deck and tower.... hmm.....)


From my research Romans and further back were aware of trebuchet technology (yet not perfected or nearly as large enough to change the game like the 1400's). They seemed to prefer to use the type that 30+ men would pull on ropes to fire them for a pretty fast rate of fire, which is a big advantage and gives something for your troops to do who might get anxious to charge out for glory. I also wonder to what extent was taken to hide these designs since they are not very proprietary and after 10 good minutes of study a spy could describe something enough for others to replicate and maybe they did not use them very much because they were effective enough with torsion artillery which is more sophisticated and harder to reproduce and did not want to find these new engines at their walls later.

Image

These designs even go back further to ancient Greek and who knows from pre-bronze age collapse. Our history is much lost to us and we collectively seem to under estimate life at these times, but there were machine shops, glass of incredible making, and so many other OP arts (out of place artifacts) that seems to suggest History is just it forgetting and rediscovering itself again.

So the world in which my minis are created is like the golden age of antiquity in all its high form. I grew up playing Age of Empires so I do not mind merging some of the time lines to have it all fit together.

Image


As to my own question,

I did a little trekking for Archimedes siege engines and found this representation which I think answers my question. It confused me to see a bent arm but apparently that's where this engine stores the energy.

Note: it fires 2 projectiles, one in the arm and another in a sling like a trebuchet.

Image
User avatar
Howlin  United States of America
 
Posts: 253
Member since:
13 Mar 2021, 11:01

Posted by Howlin on 12 Aug 2021, 21:21

Thine eyes must be gettin' old, because upon further examination, I see a giant bolt which that hammer like club would have struck like flicking pebbles

Image

I think I want to make one of both!
User avatar
Howlin  United States of America
 
Posts: 253
Member since:
13 Mar 2021, 11:01

Posted by CliosPaintingBench on 13 Aug 2021, 02:04

Howlin wrote:funness on level that keeps the inner child alive! Which is why I want each vessel to have its own character, strengths and weaknesses, and each side will have some asymmetrical tactics as well.


Plausibility is good enough for me, we have certain artefacts preserved in archaeology but we can't have got every design that ever existed.

Character is super important to me too, you want models to have a story. It's what got me into Warhammer originally.

This is a very promising ship project. I love the custom work you've done on the sides, it looks very work intensive. :-D
User avatar
CliosPaintingBench  Australia
 
Posts: 772
Member since:
14 Jan 2020, 06:46

Posted by Howlin on 13 Aug 2021, 02:16

thank you, I put a lot more custom work into this one and still quite a bit to go really, many of the pieces are cut, then carved to shape, then glued, and cut or carved some more. I just want to solidify design before I fill in milliput in parts.


I want more of a living game, than one with set rules and character will add a lot of elements to how each ship will be able to move, and attack as a framework, but how the units win engagements is a lot about being able to describe what they want to have happen, then get a score on how reasonable that would be ( like 3 men taking on 5 cav, you better be able to make a good case as to why those 3 men could pull that off or accept low odds) then the random element would be a dice roll to see how effective that goal was achieved by its likelyhood % score


Question: would it be better to just have been better I just make one thread " Triremes, Biremes, and More"
so as I add ships they all stay together for those that want to follow? Or make a thread to give emphasis to what is new?
User avatar
Howlin  United States of America
 
Posts: 253
Member since:
13 Mar 2021, 11:01

Next page

Return to Work in Progress