Work in Progress

Highlanders Warriors.

Posted by Jaques on 02 Jul 2020, 23:12

Hi , friends.

I took a break from painting because, as is already known on the forum, I have obsessive conversion disorder. :oops: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
Modifying some of the wonderful figures of the manufacturer Valdemar and inspired by the film Braveheart with actor Mel Gibson as Willian Wallace, I am building some highlanders warriors.
I'm thinking of using shields from the Vikings of Zvezda, but I don't know if with such a long sword model, I could use it to fight with just one hand.
I hope you like it and suggestions for improving the work are welcome.

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Regards. :thumbup:
Jaques  Brazil
 
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Posted by Ochoin on 03 Jul 2020, 09:19

Jaques, I'll start by saying you do what you want & no-one can criticise this.

Historically, you may have some issues. The sword these figures are carrying is sometimes called a claidheamh mór. This is Gaelic for 'big sword' and usually anglecised to 'claymore'.

It is applied to two quite different swords: the basket-hilted broadsword of the Jacobite Rebellions in the early C18th & after which was usually accompanied with a 'targe': a very specific shield *very* unlike that viking shield you are using.

See here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfwqJZUXOBs

The two-handed claymore (the other type) was a large sword used in the late Medieval and early modern periods. It was used in the constant clan warfare and border fights with the English from circa 1400 to 1700. And it would not be used with a shield. A two-hander was a weapon designed to be used with two hands.
This is not only because of the weight as a finely balanced version weighed maybe 3.5 kilos but because it was often used as a type of lever in combat. The subsequent fighting style is quite interesting & unlike fighting with a conventional sword.

See this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbNL_At0IVw
Your figures are armed with a different sort of claymore: a movie version of the two-hander that has no existence in reality.
"Braveheart" is essentially a fantasy so if you want to add any sort of shield, do it!

best wishes, donald
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Ochoin  Scotland
 
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Posted by Jaques on 03 Jul 2020, 10:57

Hi , Ochoin.

Thank you very much for the historical information of the periods and for the use of swords. :thumbup:

As I said, I am making the figures in the "Hollywood" model of the film. Mixture of fiction with reality. ;-)
Perhaps I cut, sand and reduce the size and width of swords in an intermediate way. However, I confess that the sword of "Connan the Barbarian (1982)", loaned by Arnold Schwarzenegger to Mel Gibson attracts me a lot. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Regards.

Jaques.
Jaques  Brazil
 
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Posted by Ochoin on 03 Jul 2020, 13:14

Jaques,

perhaps you could modify the swords: it's up to you. And I imagine the figures will be great no matter what you decide.

I look forward to seeing the finished product.

donald
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Ochoin  Scotland
 
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Posted by OwenChpw on 04 Jul 2020, 00:30

I don't have anything as vaguely useful to add as above, other than those are great sculpts and fighting a howling Scottish highlander swinging the sharp baseball stick with two hands would scare the bejesus out of me.
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OwenChpw  Australia
 
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Posted by Ochoin on 04 Jul 2020, 07:43

Interestingly, Owen, each clan had its own, distinctive war cry.

https://www.scotsman.com/whats-on/arts- ... ns-1482723

The only war cry you hear now is "You want HOW much for that???"

donald
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Ochoin  Scotland
 
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Posted by Kekso on 04 Jul 2020, 13:59

Ochoin wrote:The only war cry you hear now is "You want HOW much for that???"


:xd: :xd: :xd:
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Posted by Bluefalchion on 04 Jul 2020, 14:34

I think the real William Wallace would have been in a full suit of armor whilst in battle. But your movie version figure is a lot more fun!
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Bluefalchion  United States of America
 
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Posted by Jaques on 04 Jul 2020, 16:00

Hi , friends. :thumbup:
Thanks for the comment.
This is my first conversion from a medieval figure.
I know very little about this period, but the basic idea for having fun, excusing historical inaccuracies, is to look at the figures as mountain people wearing tartan.
As Bluefalchion said, the real Willian Wallace should have worn armor, but, just like in the movie, for laymen like me, without that identity, it looks like any other medieval warrior and the movie would hardly have been so successful. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Most historic photo of the figures of the manufacturer Valdemar in 1/72.
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Regards.
Jaques  Brazil
 
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Posted by Jaques on 04 Jul 2020, 18:35

Continuing ...

Trying to make an ear.

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Increased beard and mustache.

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Jaques  Brazil
 
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Posted by Jaques on 04 Jul 2020, 23:06

Hi friends.

Thinking about the difficult future painting of the figures in the 1/72 scale, any suggestion or reference for painting the ancient color pattern of the great medieval kilt before the tartan pattern?

Best Regards. :thumbup:
Jaques  Brazil
 
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Posted by OwenChpw on 05 Jul 2020, 04:21

Ochoin wrote:Interestingly, Owen, each clan had its own, distinctive war cry.

https://www.scotsman.com/whats-on/arts- ... ns-1482723

The only war cry you hear now is "You want HOW much for that???"

donald


Haha, wow that is super fascinating. Every time I hear little tidbits that grab me and then I want to start a whole new army!

Were medieval scots much like other medieval armies? More like Outlaw King than Braveheart? By the time of the claymore were you fully amoured up in chainmail for the clan wars, or would you have Scottish trappings - maybe a tartan sash or kilt to go over?
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OwenChpw  Australia
 
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Posted by Ochoin on 05 Jul 2020, 05:52

Jaques wrote:Hi friends.

Thinking about the difficult future painting of the figures in the 1/72 scale, any suggestion or reference for painting the ancient color pattern of the great medieval kilt before the tartan pattern?

Best Regards. :thumbup:


Hi, Jaques.

Supposedly there were no clan tartans before the mid C18th. I strongly disagree with that but certainly all the complex patterns there are now didn't exist.

There is a Wallace tartan:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_Wallace

Whether WW ever wore it is unknowable.

There are several tutorials on painting tartan. This one isn't bad:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GUl2_WB0O4

It's not as difficult as you'd think.

I hope this helps, donald
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Ochoin  Scotland
 
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Posted by Ochoin on 05 Jul 2020, 06:01

OwenChpw wrote:

Were medieval scots much like other medieval armies? More like Outlaw King than Braveheart? By the time of the claymore were you fully amoured up in chainmail for the clan wars, or would you have Scottish trappings - maybe a tartan sash or kilt to go over?


The major difference is that the Scots were taller, smarter, braver & better looking than the English and still are! (I may be joking here).

TBH the medieval period isn't of great interest to me. I do know that Wallace's & Bruce's armies were mostly unarmoured spearmen, massed into dense phalanxes ('schiltrons'). The movie of BH isn't totally wrong here. They'd have a small contingent of armoured knights who'd be indistinguishable from their English counterparts.

That's an interesting question about the tartan. Certainly, Wallace didn't smear his face with blue paint.
That *might* apply to the earlier Picts but there's no evidence for it in the Scottish Wars of Independence.

As you know, we Celts have long liked checkered clothing. This is proto-tartan. I think there were probably patterns favoured by various families which is the beginning of the current system of clan tartans. They'd have been a lot simpler, though. I think Scottish spearmen would have draped themselves in some of these tartans as it was typically woven in every bodies' house.

donald
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Posted by Graeme on 05 Jul 2020, 09:01

Jaques wrote:Thinking about the difficult future painting of the figures in the 1/72 scale, any suggestion or reference for painting the ancient color pattern of the great medieval kilt before the tartan pattern?


Hi Jaques.

I think basing your figures on the film is absolutely fine and the figures look great; I'm looking forward to seeing more of this. You can do whatever you want with your figures because the film is not historically accurate. Wallace was not a Highlander and his army was not a highland army. There may have been some highlanders in his army but they would not have looked like the characters in the film. Which, I think , means you have a free rein.

As to the colour and pattern of kilt Medievel Highlanders would have worn, well they wouldn't have worn kilts but the tunics they probably did wear are usually described as being saffron coloured.

Some information on the development of Highland dress from J. Dunbar Telfer's "History of Highland Dress" and "The costume of Scotland".

Medievel accounts of Highlanders have them dressed in the Irish fashion. Short tunic (Leine) or long shirt (Sark in Scotland) and a mantle or cloak (Brat). Bare legged and barefoot except in extreme conditions such as snow where deerskin (in some places possibly sealskin) might be wrapped around the feet and tied about the ankles, worn hair side out.

In early Irish writing the leine is described as being "gel" (bright) but later medievel accounts record them as being saffron coloured (though perhaps not all dyed with actual saffron).

Leines and sarks are often described as being pleated though this could perhaps sometimes refer to quilting of protective garments.

The brat is generally described as being shaggy and perhaps fringed.

First written reference: Magnus Berfaet's Saga 1093, says that on return frrom an expedition to the West King Magnus and many of his followers adopted the costume of the Western lands, going barelegged and having short tunics (kyrtlu) and upper garments (yfir hafnir).

Guibert of Nogent's 1104-1112 History of the First Crusade mentions the scots soldiers in their shaggy cloaks and also contains what might be the first ever description of sporrans.

John Major's (No! not THAT one) 1521 "History of Greater Britain" describes the Scots thus: "From the middle of the leg to the foot they have no covering for the leg, clothing themselves with a mantle instead of an upper garment and a shirt dyed with saffron... In time of war they cover their whole body with a shirt of mail of iron rings , and fight in that. The common people of the Highland Scots rush into battle having their body clothed with a linen garment manifoldly sewed and painted or daubed with pitch, with a covering of deerskin". The manifoldly sewed is often interpreted as evidence of pleating but being a war garment it might well refer to quilting of a padded protective garment.

There is some thought that there were two types of dress at the time; short jacket and trews (truibhas) of the original inhabitants, and the lein and brats of the conquering Gaels. this is supported by the fact that all of the figures in trews depicted in "The Book of Kells" appear to be lower class people, I wonder if the original inhabitants were more colourful like the Ancient Britons as described by Caeser?

Some pictures
Schotische Hooglander by Lucas de Heere in the library of Ghent University.

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R.R. McIans Victorian era paintings are considered to be quite fanciful but these ones might give some idea of what Medievel Highlanders looked like.

Ferguson:

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MacArthur:

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MacDonald. Lord of the Isles:

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The first mention of Tartan is a 1538 record of a costume made for King James V which calls for:
"variant cullorit velvit to be 'ane Heland Coit"
"Heland tertane to be hoiss" [trews]
"Holland claith to be syde Heland Sarkis" [long shirts].

But here the "tertane" might to refer to a type of cloth imported from France rather than a distinctive Highland pattern.

George Buchanan in "Rerum Scoticarum Historia", 1581 says the Scots delighted in variegated colours especially stripes with favourite colours being blue and purple. And dark brown for camoflage when hunting in the heather; but that "their ancestors wore plaids of many colours, and numbers still retain this custom".

First definite mention of belted plaids is in 1594 when Scots mercenaries fighting in Ireland are described by the Irish as being distinguished by their "mottled cloaks of many colours with a fringe to their shins and calves, their belts were over their loins outside their cloaks".

John Taylor's 1618 account of the local Gentry on a hunt on the Braes of Mar describes: "shooes of but one sole apiece; stockings (which they call short hose) made of warm stuffe of veriagated colours, which they call Tartane; as for breeches, many of them, nor their forefathers, never wore any, but a jerkin of the same stuff that their hoise is of, their garters being bands or wreaths of hay or straw, with a plead about their shoulders , which is a mantle of divers colours, much finer and lighter stuffe than their hose, with blue flat caps on their heads. a handkerchief knit with two knots about their neck; and thus they are attyred".

Between the early meeting of the Gaels and the Picts and the Britons, and the first accounts of the familiar highland dress in the early C17, I think there must have been a lot of mixing and blending and cultural exchange. Also the very nature of weaving means that when you start to weave different colours together, tartan patterns is what your going to get. I suspect tartans appeared quite early we just don't have documentary evidence of it.

I know the wisdom of the hive mind tells us there were no clan tartans but I agree with Donald; I think many of the tartans we know today, or something like them, have been around for a long time, In many cases associated with specific areas, which are themselves closely linked to specific clans.
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Graeme  Australia
 
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Posted by Graeme on 05 Jul 2020, 10:01

The date of the Lucas de Heere picture is 1577 by the way, i meant to include that. :oops:

the chequered pattern on his shirt could be seen as representing tartan or it could just be quilting on padded linen armour.

But anyway i think saffron shirts get pretty boring after a short while so I'd much rather see your movie version Highlanders.
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Posted by Bluefalchion on 05 Jul 2020, 13:06

Well it is an impressive showing here by our forum people. Jacques now has all the information he could possibly need, and more on top of that! I will look forward to his continuing progress.
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Posted by OwenChpw on 06 Jul 2020, 04:05

This is all very helpful, I feel like I just got a crash course of a slice of highlander history. I love that the hobby is linked to such a deep reading and knowledge of historical details.
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Posted by Ochoin on 06 Jul 2020, 05:04

OwenChpw wrote:This is all very helpful, I feel like I just got a crash course of a slice of highlander history. I love that the hobby is linked to such a deep reading and knowledge of historical details.


Owen, now I'm going to sound like a pretentious pain.

Highland history. No -er. Hielan history if you want the vernacular.

Not quite as bad as saying "Scotch" * for the people of Scotland. We're Scots or Scottish.
The drink is Scotch.

Apologies for this.

donald

* Interestingly, "Scotch" was OK for Scottish people some years ago. My Dad, a Fifer living in Glasgow, sometimes called himself Scotch. Both Walter Scott & Burns used "Scotch" for Scottish things.
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Ochoin  Scotland
 
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Posted by OwenChpw on 06 Jul 2020, 06:55

Ochoin wrote:
Owen, now I'm going to sound like a pretentious pain.

Highland history. No -er. Hielan history if you want the vernacular.

Not quite as bad as saying "Scotch" * for the people of Scotland. We're Scots or Scottish.
The drink is Scotch.

Apologies for this.

donald

* Interestingly, "Scotch" was OK for Scottish people some years ago. My Dad, a Fifer living in Glasgow, sometimes called himself Scotch. Both Walter Scott & Burns used "Scotch" for Scottish things.


Haha, I stand corrected. And I have no problem with that because that's the only way we get the right information. Though Scotch people sounds weird, it's always been Scottish to me.
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