Work in Progress

Quatre Bras 16th June 1815

Posted by C M Dodson on 13 Sep 2017, 20:59

Hello forumers.

I have commenced the construction of the buildings for Quatre Bras.

The research is driving me, the Feldmarschall and my good friend Thomas Mischak bonkers as so much information is contradictory, even the pictures painted at the time!

Whilst scale considerations and the above mean the constructions will not be one hundred per cent accurate I hope to get the feel of them. If a citizen from 1815 were to say, ' that looks familiar' I will be very pleased.

First up Gemincourt. Jac Wellers 'Wellington at Waterloo' from 1967 shows another barn in front of the farm and the Belgian Army map of October 1815 confirms this.

The gate should stand proud of the walls, but is currently propping them up.

I will paint the buildings white wash with a blue gray roof as the evidence to date suggests that this was the colour scheme on the 16th.


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Happy modelling.

Chris
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Posted by C M Dodson on 14 Sep 2017, 04:16

Next on the list the farm at Quatre Bras unfortunately, recently demolished.

There are many contemporary views of the farm but I like these two especially. Many thanks to Thomas Mischak for finding the 20th June 1815 picture. Notice the barn is painted a biscuit colour when most others are whitewash!

url=https://postimages.org/]Image[/url]

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Lots of bracing to make the models strong. The gateway is a bit weird and the pre demolition pictures do not seem to reflect the 1815 pictures at all. These farms were very big and effectively secured areas. The Belgian Army survey of October 1825 suggests that there was no barn to complete the triangle. I am not sure about this and any information would be most useful.

url=https://postimg.org/image/mdmmaz539/]Image[/url]

Happy modelling.

Chris
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Posted by Graeme on 14 Sep 2017, 17:56

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Posted by C M Dodson on 14 Sep 2017, 18:56

Hi Graham.

You are a superstar par excellence!

I have seen the Mudford pictures and Thomas provided the one shown, but these are fantastic.

I do not know why my internet trawling a have not dug these up but they are just what the doctor ordered.

To get a different angle is very useful indeed and the crossroads itself. Brilliant.

Next up, an Alehouse, I owe you a drink at its bar.

Thank you again.

Ps. Although I am getting enthused about my new project much to the Feldmarschalls frustration. ' why do you not finish one thing before starting another'? I still have the closing of Ligny on my mind and intend to do the final moves shortly.

Right, where is my drawing board.

Chris
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Posted by thomaspicton on 15 Sep 2017, 08:09

Great to see this project coming along - it's a fascinating battle and much more mobile than Waterloo.
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Posted by Kostis Ornerakis on 15 Sep 2017, 09:04

Wonderful work so far! :thumbup: :-D
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Kostis Ornerakis  Greece
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Posted by FredG on 15 Sep 2017, 11:30

C M Dodson wrote:................... much to the Feldmarschalls frustration. ' why do you not finish one thing before starting another'? ..............


I think most of us will be subject to the other half's derision at some/all stage/s of this hobby.

To use your own expression Chris.

Bonkerishness rules!
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Posted by C M Dodson on 15 Sep 2017, 14:09

Many thanks again to Thomas and Graham for their wonderful pictures that take you right back in time. I will use these pictures for the colour schemes as they were painted four days after the battle. How fantastic is that?

My wonderful wife suggested printing the prints out and sticking them together and now I have a panorama. Brilliant!

The buildings need tidying up and the wall needs finishing but I am pleased with the Quatre Bras farm. Many thanks to Wolfgang Meyer for the gates he gave me a few years ago. I think that they look splendid with the hinges.

Do not worry Mr. Fred, she is always right ( it helps) and is very supportive of my efforts with plenty of good ideas and advice.

Next up a pub as I need to get the beers in for Thomas and Graham.

url=https://postimages.org/]Image[/url]

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Happy modelling,

Chris
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Posted by C M Dodson on 17 Sep 2017, 16:34

Further to the excellent pictures from Graham I have redesigned the farm de la Bergerie which was originally based on Andrew Fields picture from his book, Quatre Bras the French perspective and Google Earth.

The model will require repainting in brick etc, as per Thomas Stoney's paintings.

I have improved on the door hinges by using chopped up copper wire which is then glued in position.

url=https://postimg.org/image/qwvd7n9fp/]Image[/url]

Happy modelling.

Chris
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Posted by Beano Boy on 17 Sep 2017, 21:30

Image

The site of the picture below.

Image

Pictures are still on Google Maps. Satellite and roadway pictures. Good detail on brickwork color and pattern also several large arched doorways unseen before. i Also manage to view and record inside structures too within the courtyard.

Image


I traveled up the backstreet were new houses have been built,and from there the other side of this massive complex could be zoomed into giving insight to roof construction and pitched roofing angles.The white arrow on the far right is where i could view that side. I decided to take lots of pictures via my camera and PC Screen. The one above shows the road clearly seen via satellite which made it possible to view that unseen side of the complex. Only three sections were ever visible from the main road before.
I guess no one had the foresight to survey this important place for the history record before they destroyed it. :eh:
Anyway I took masses of pictures of ironwork and brickwork and manage to record the actual wood frame construction within the roof itself made possible viewing and zooming through the large gaping hole in the roof. That hole can be seen in the picture above.

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These pictures joined up make up the unseen side. I will zoom in and polish them up later.

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This place like Hougoumont had a large garden area out back with high thick Hawthorn hedges tracing that garden out along the main roadway,and around the entire back reaching around to that unseen side in the pictures. These pictures i have gathered are much better than nothing. Soon the images will be lost as Google Maps once more cover the area again.

I have built many scratch-buildings and i have always found Google Maps a prize in a draw to aid my working hobby. :thumbup: I love doing this kind of stuff. :-D BB
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Posted by C M Dodson on 18 Sep 2017, 07:47

Hi Mr B.B.

Thank you for your wonderful pictures.

Yes, I have found Google Earth a fantastic tool for wandering around battlefields.

My only caveat is comparing the images to more contemporary sources as many have changed over the years. The entrance 'towers' to the Quatre Bras farm seem modern compared to the paintings I have seen.

However, the pictures you have taken at the rear of the property are fascinating.

This is the difficult to access section of the structure as far as information is concerned.

Timmerman's took lots of pictures of the old property before its demolition but seem to have missed a trick which you have rectified.

Thomas Stoneys painting of the rear of the building shows no doors and also no rear building!

As I stated initially, the amount of contradictory information about what should be a simple subject is really frustrating.

I am not a master builder but I hope I can capture the 'feel' of the subject for my re fight.

Your works are inspired and I hope that you do not mind if I 'pinch' some of your ideas?

Best wishes,

Chris
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Posted by C M Dodson on 18 Sep 2017, 14:00

As an example of the confused research these two pictures illustrate it well.

The first shows the original entrance of the farm minus its apparently, later day more elaborate entrance.

url=https://postimages.org/]Image[/url]

This one, from Mike Robinsons book is taken from the south east angle of the crossroads. The large barn seems original as does the house, although that has been altered. The entrance has disappeared and the building which pre demolition, at the back is not there.

The structure to the right has sprouted since 1815 to torn down later.

url=https://postimg.org/image/z8yiif2bp/]Image[/url]

Bonkerishness.

Chris
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Posted by Beano Boy on 18 Sep 2017, 21:33

Yes you are most welcome to that vital spark, and odd idea from me.
:eh: "Eh?"__ :sst: " yes bb,does have then now and again."

A very neat scratch-built model, in every shape and complex way.
I believe you will have lots of fun and wonderful game play with it. :-D BB
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Posted by Mr. Cryns on 05 Oct 2017, 18:57

Dear Mr. Dodson,

Congratulations with this succesful start of your (long time ago planned) Quatre Bras project!

C M Dodson wrote:Whilst scale considerations and the above mean the constructions will not be one hundred per cent accurate I hope to get the feel of them. If a citizen from 1815 were to say, ' that looks familiar' I will be very pleased.


That is the right spirit.
Remember the pics of the Quatre Bras battlefield I build in 2005?
Your attempts to re create those buildings are already much more successful and credible. By then I had not much of a clue how old specific structures were, if they were present at all in 1815 or not. And what colors they had. You already gathered so much more information, with the help of others. Its wonderful. I look forward to see this project progressing.

Regards
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Posted by Beano Boy on 06 Oct 2017, 01:40

For my personal research upon scratch-building projects I find It is interesting to define the actual outside edge of such structures first. Very true lots have changed in just a little over two hundred years,but it is that boundry line that is now mapped out so well by satellite that defines the complexities of buildings surrounding in this case of added interest: the inner courtyards themselves and outlaying gardens.

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The rendered up bottom section of wall is much more modern than the old doorways it covers.

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The original square patterns at the top and the straight reinforcement iron upon the walls were probably in place back in the day of the battle so the brickwork is sound and true.

With the old brick work patterns ,and bricked up windows,and doorways all with original lintels still intact ,also help define the newer part of walls from the old,as shoddy working styles down throughout the ages stick out like rather soar thumbs. The arched out patterns over the top of larger entranceways can define where single or larger double doors were originally installed. Many of these often are bricked up but their unmistaken shape and size remains locked tight fitting within the walls.

Image See the slopping angle in the wall?

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The horseshoe shaped iron traces the sloop defining the old part from that of change.

Old reinforcement iron and straight slopping mortar lines also helps trace out in this case the actual change to the front entrance way,and can be clearly seen in modern day enhanced pictures. Although the date of such alterations cannot be found without official building reports,and here within this narrow scope of devided interest there might well be none available.

What they knocked down they used again.

It was the case I believe that cleaned up recycled bricks converted the front wall sections of what walls we clearly see today. Well in photographs anyway since the old dilapidated eyesore is no more.

Finding baked clay pantiles on the site can determine what type of roof my own work will have,because simply put they show a greater depth concerning age of any old place. Straight clay tiles and slate reach further back,unlike the diamond patterns upon rooftops do. So finding such evidence can help decide upon the shape,and structure of such a build.

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The covered garden entrance is on the left of this picture. The other far off to the right.

Looking at area`s of interest out back of this old oddly shaped place there appears mapped out by plants that grow wild to have been a narrow entrance leading into the large Hawthorn edged garden,and also another larger wide open space outback too accommodate the flow of larger horse drawn wagons. So most certainly there was a open gate way through the hedgerow leading to the main road itself.

Most certainly as I have studied many such places in this neck of the woods,that dove cotes were originally placed over such open style gateway entrances out back,and in the case of researching Hougoumont ( Goumont ) where there were three dove cotes,and one over the entrance of La Haye Sainte, this proved to be the case. In Goumont one was built over the well atop a stone structure so extra food on the wing of wood pigeons just flew in. Another over the garden entrance to the formal garden,and a dove cote was actually built into the back of the roof of the front facing main building which is now covered over in shinny clean new modern tiles. They termed such work restoration, I call it vandalism on a grand modern scale.

Well it has been great fun joining in,but I realise this to have been a rather long winded read so thanks for taking time out for it, and giving me some leeway upon revealing clues hidden in old style buildings that can help model makers place interesting details upon any scratch building projects. :-D BB
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Posted by C M Dodson on 08 Oct 2017, 09:14

Thank you to Benno Boy and Mt Crynns for their help and encouragement. It is nice to see Mr C back in action.

Mr B is correct in his comments and these clues can help to visualise structures when documentary evidence is lacking. As stated before however the amount of contradictory evidence from paintings both contemporary and some of the later more fanciful offerings makes for frustrating work.

The extentions, rebuilds, demolitions etc help to increase the confusion.

I am also keen to keep the ' footprints' of the structures roughly to scale and whilst wanting to follow Thomas Stoneys wonderful pictures exactly I have to keep in mind that Quatre Bras was not a city block!

In the meantime I have just received a sample package of the Hat Landwehr from the kind people at Hat. Off to Ligny for the closing scenes!

Chris
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Posted by Beano Boy on 08 Oct 2017, 19:58

What makes this place Quatre Bras,hard to work out is the original farmhouse was missing in every picture to be seen. I had been looking for days and suddenly the obvious dawned upon me.

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I believe one has to look at the aerial view of the Ferme de Gemioncourt to see the farm house there.

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I believe the same architect draw up plans for both building complexes, but in reverse to one another. So I have reversed the photograph. He had a problem with getting the angles right for Quatre Bras,because his square plans even with one building removed caused a future problem and that is why the front section had to be changed,and the farmhouse demolished out back.
Of course this is only my opinion ,but the striking similarities seem to ring true between the two. BB
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Posted by C M Dodson on 09 Oct 2017, 17:32

Hello Mr B and thank you for your kind thoughts.

I can see where you are coming from but the contemporary pictures suggest a different structure albeit similar in concept as an enclosed farm.

Piraumont is on my list and once again is enclosed although different from the present structure based on old pictures and turn of the century photographs.

I have nearly completed Quatre Bras farm. Whilst it is not 100% accurate I hope that it has captured the 'feel' of the place in 1815.

There is some glazing work and a little more weathering to do but I am pleased with the result so far.

url=https://postimg.org/image/mxz8kjo05/]Image[/url]


url=https://postimg.org/image/dc5o48wud/]Image[/ur]

Happy modelling.

Chris
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Posted by C M Dodson on 09 Oct 2017, 17:33

Oh, apologies for the rough and ready backdrop. My wonderful wife was holding up a quilt rather than show off the bedroom furniture.

Chris
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Posted by Beano Boy on 09 Oct 2017, 18:38

Superb Work Chris. :thumbup: BB
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