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Phoenician barge

Posted by Mr. Cryns on 23 Jul 2017, 12:06

stenfalk wrote:I have a request: would you be so friendly and would give me a close-up pic of the takelage of your boat? I am particularly interested in how the ropes are attached to the upper end of the mast.


Kostis did a nice job. There is not one specific or certain way to make ancient sail rigging. But Kostis made one very credible example of how it could be done.

stenfalk wrote: Google has not provided me with any satisfactory results. I would be glad if you could help me...


I faced that problem too. So I photographed many replica models and graphic reconstructions during my trips to maritime archaeology museums in Athens, Piraeus and Venice and collected the scarce number of books on this topic.
Here are some of the clearest examples. All of them different and all of them interpretations by specialists. I still do not understand all of these rigging systems. But I usually compare all different possibilities and make my own (simplified) interpretation.

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Mr. Cryns  Netherlands

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Posted by Beano Boy on 23 Jul 2017, 13:34

On the number 2 picture: A good illustration of the sail rings through which the ropes were run through to pull up or lower the sail. The mast and supporting top ropes enabled the sail to turn from side to side to windward.The straight wooden sail beam is also tied to the mast to further aid this movement and is tied off perhaps around a post at the stern,and bow. Both not seen in the picture.

In the last picture the mast and what appears to be a tie-off post are oddly not in the centre position in the boat,and upon reflection is an artistic error of magnitude if one is doing so called correct research in any boat building period. Of course it cannot be said that you draw such a picture,but its presentation here is worthy of note.BB
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Posted by stenfalk on 23 Jul 2017, 14:49

Mr. Cryns, i should have known that you probably could provide me with the appropriate material. Thank you for helping without hesitation, even if i had not thought of asking you first. :oops:

These are really very meaningful photos, apparently you have get around a lot in the world. I am convinced your collection of photos is a treasure of immeasurable knowledge. It's nice to be involved with it from time to time... :thumbup:

BB, thank you for your supplement too, slowly i start to understand the functioning. :eh: Very slow however... ;-)
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Posted by Kostis Ornerakis on 23 Jul 2017, 20:46

Mr. Cryns confirmed my conserns that rigging is rather heavy.
So new deadyes :mad: :-D
You can see the origin for the 2 used as masters and the resin copies. :-D
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Kostis Ornerakis  Greece
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Posted by sansovino on 26 Jul 2017, 17:04

A really wonderful barge and an absolute precious tutorial of ancient sail-rigging. Cheers for it!
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Posted by Kostis Ornerakis on 27 Jul 2017, 20:52

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The 4th figure (steersman) is already in its place. :-D
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Posted by Frankzett on 28 Jul 2017, 08:00

@ Mr. Cryns
May be there are experts with ship modelling with this museum; I am no great expert, but I can't believe the construction of this yard. I never saw such a construction on pictures whereever ...

@ Costis
The figures are wonderfull pieces, but I think they do not really fix with such a small barge.
First the man with his himation a very special type of clothing, it would be very unpractical for a passenger to do what ever on a small sailing boat.
Second and third; why do they wear uncomfortable war helmets, especially the woman (it looks rather mythical)?

...as I said, the figures looking great, but I think a small merchant barge do not look like a conclisive context with them.

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Posted by Kostis Ornerakis on 28 Jul 2017, 08:38

Dear Frank, Thank you for your kind words. :-D
The title of my story ( like a fairytale ) will be: The princess's demand.
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Kostis Ornerakis  Greece
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Posted by Bluefalchion on 28 Jul 2017, 14:43

Kostis Ornerakis wrote:Dear Frank, Thank you for your kind words. :-D
The title of my story ( like a fairytale ) will be: The princess's demand.


I am intrigued. But I don't prefer to wait before I learn what the story will be!

:D
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Posted by Kostis Ornerakis on 28 Jul 2017, 15:16

Thank you my friend! :-D
Just the title. The spoiled lady wanted a boat ride. So her poor father had to make this happen! :-D
I told before like a fairytale. :oops:
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Kostis Ornerakis  Greece
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Posted by Bluefalchion on 28 Jul 2017, 16:23

You painted her face to look haughty and arrogant. It's a miracle!
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Posted by Mr. Cryns on 02 Aug 2017, 12:29

Dear Kostis,

Thanks for showing how you cut your rigging blocks from wood (is that an old brush grip?) and reproduce them in resin.

The oversized rigging blocks I send to you are a beginners mistake of myself.
Making all very small items too big is like a constant trap.

And yes I love your painted figures.

Bluefalchion wrote:You painted her face to look haughty and arrogant. It's a miracle!

Thats an interesting topic, Bluefalchion. Since partly the expression of a face is a decision of the painter. But, apart from the shape of the original sculpt, my experience is, the small size of a face dictates a rather 'random' result that is pretty difficult to adjust.

Frankzett wrote:@ Mr. Cryns
May be there are experts with ship modelling with this museum; I am no great expert, but I can't believe the construction of this yard. I never saw such a construction on pictures whereever ...

Frankzett, as nearly always you are right here. Again.
I admit 'expert' was not the best chosen word.
Its clear this three part compiled yard will not hold for long.
Its a kind of silly simplification of a credible design:

Image

But its the large scale of that modelship rigging in combination with oversized details that made it the most usefull model for me when it comes to educational matters.

Many ship models are very small scale and boxed in glass in a museum so its impossible to make a macro shot of the rigging: I just can't get close enough to the subject to make a clear picture. Also knotting works in 1/72 scale are so tiny it will be impossible to determinate its construction even when there is enough light and possibility to get nearer.
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Mr. Cryns  Netherlands

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Posted by Bluefalchion on 02 Aug 2017, 13:37

Mr. Cryns wrote:
Thats an interesting topic, Bluefalchion. Since partly the expression of a face is a decision of the painter. But, apart from the shape of the original sculpt, my experience is, the small size of a face dictates a rather 'random' result that is pretty difficult to adjust.


I agree with you completely, as usual, and having a facial expression end up looking a certain way has been most often a happy (or unhappy) accident with my painted figures. All the more reason to stand by my original statement--Kostis has pulled off a miracle with this female figure! I will add, at this scale it is easy for a gal's face to look hideous once painted, but this one conveys his intention that she be young and quite a "looker" as we might say in the U.S.A.
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Posted by Kostis Ornerakis on 02 Aug 2017, 17:33

Mr. Cryns thank you for your words. :-D
Yes the deadeyes are from a brush grip. :oops:
For the expression of the face: Try to paint a lighter dot in different spots of the cheeks. ;-)
Also important is the shape and size of the eyes. We can control them depending on how far into the outline of the eye the shadow reaches. :-D
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Kostis Ornerakis  Greece
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Posted by sberry on 03 Aug 2017, 07:27

Mr. Cryns wrote:Since partly the expression of a face is a decision of the painter. But, apart from the shape of the original sculpt, my experience is, the small size of a face dictates a rather 'random' result that is pretty difficult to adjust.

Most of the time, I am happy when the faces I paint look somehow like a living human, and not like zombies, gorillas etc. That's already hard to achieve, and to give them a carefully selected particular expression is simply beyond my skills.
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Posted by Kostis Ornerakis on 03 Aug 2017, 15:27

Stephan, most of the time, I too .. just try. :-D
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Kostis Ornerakis  Greece
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Posted by Mr. Cryns on 10 Aug 2017, 09:24

After all that has been said I like to say to you I do like the way you painted that ladies face!
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Posted by Susofrick on 10 Aug 2017, 09:37

That lady's face is really nicely painted!
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Posted by Kostis Ornerakis on 10 Aug 2017, 16:11

Thank you Gunnar and Mr. Cryns. :-D
Me and my family spent a few days for a short break.
We are back now and I am reworking the barge with a thinner mast. I believe I can post in a day or two. :-D
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Kostis Ornerakis  Greece
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Posted by Kostis Ornerakis on 13 Aug 2017, 19:07

I hope you like the changes:
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