Ancient Temple

[daikaigan]

Very Very Good Leo!!!!

[Wiking]

Will these very nice and well done Temple be for the modellers good finally?
Oh! Do we have one?
Resin or ABS ?
What will be the offering?

[sberry]

It's getting better and better!
But of course, a temple needs a statue of the god or gods who are dwelling there. So I'm looking forward to the statues (and other accessories for the interior as well). Any idea when everything will be for sale in your shop?

[Kekso]

That what other guys said

[Cryns]

Dear Phersu,

What a surprise, what a surprise!

Two week ago I returned from my Etruscan holiday tour visiting Orvieto, Sarano, Vulci, Tarquinia and Cerveteri and the first thing I found at Benno's forum after coming home was your Ancient Temple.

I just love it. You continue our old passion from the 1970's: The Atlantic figures and buildings. Here at home I have the Egyptian Palace, the Sphynx, many Nile boats and Greek Galleys. Your temple is what they should have produced back in those days.

Having a second look at your work, and also the excellent similar temple made by Stephan Berry, I am getting confused:
Both of you made a temple with a typical Etruscan ground plan, columns and walls but with a typical Greek fronton. Etruscan had no frontons as far as I know.
Or did I miss something?

But you wrote this:

In future I planned also to make a set of alternative columns with Doric or Ionic capitels, walls and roof decorations, some statues and other accessories and add on to make some variations to represent some particular temples.
a bit at time I'll show the progresses, and when something is ready painted on the galleries too.

This explains some. Your naming: Ancient Temple, indicated it can be any ancient culture. A multi-functional kit. Is this for commercial reasons?

Apart from 6 Doric or Ionian columns in stead of 4 in a line for the Classical Greek version....



...you should make an Etruscan front, I think, with no massive fronton but an third small front roof and some decorated tiles at the frontal ends of the roof beams, for the Etruscan variation.



Or did I miss something important in the research of ancient temples?

[Frankzett]

In my opinion it would be worth to read the recent post, to understand the critics of Mr. Cryns. This was no final bash in this thead, this could be a start of a constructive dialogue.
Well, Mr. Cryns you are right of course. This could be an hybrid ancient temple consisting of the best of the Greek classic and the Etruscan culture.
We have hybrid architecture in Italy, but with other accentuation of construction and ornament. The end of this cultural dialogue were the types of the Roman temples.
Your post is the Etruscan temple of Apulu of Veiji. This information has a distance of only one click in the www. so I understand critics about the inaccuracies in general.
With this model there is a problem with its kind of mixed details; the Greek or Etruscan temple types have different proportions in so many architectural parts that it will not work with a correct appearance. Every ancient temple works like a single sculpture in every proportion and ornament.

@Phersu Why not building a second temple in greek style, with this fronton, doric columns etc. and rework the Etruscan temple with the historical correct details? This would be great!

Greetins
Frank

[Phersu]

Thank you my friends!
And sorry again for my late reply... I'm still have problems to connect to internet ...and there was so much to say!

Now it seem to work, slowwwwww.... but it works!
let's hope it keep me connected long enough to reply!
Let's explain and answer the questions...

Will these very nice and well done Temple be for the modellers good finally?
Oh! Do we have one?
Resin or ABS ?
What will be the offering?

I just released this new model on my website, only 8 copies are available at the moment:

https://sites.google.com/site/phersumin ... /pricelist

The model is all in resin.
I can cast copies of this temple on request...

It's a "home made" casting, with all the obvious limits of castings without professional equipment.
I can't afford to produce it in series yet, such big model require a much bigger investment compared to my usual figures sets.

This also means that I can only cast a limited quantity of these temple models, and can't be cheap compared to most other buildings produced in series from bigger producers… despite I kept the price at the real minimal possible, at least for my small personal "home based" production.

In fact I got to cast only 11 copies of this model at the moment, including the painted temple in the photos, which means almost 6 kilograms of resin casted in 198 large pieces… I wish it was quicker but it took longer than I thought.

Unfortunately I can't speed up the casting more than this, if I want to keep a good or at least a decent quality… and avoid scrap pieces with too many imperfections which would increase the cost anyway.

It's getting better and better!
But of course, a temple needs a statue of the god or gods who are dwelling there. So I'm looking forward to the statues (and other accessories for the interior as well). Any idea when everything will be for sale in your shop?

I hope something will be ready within next winter, to add to the few statues with pedestals and wall decorations and other accessories, that I already produced and could fit well in the temple scenery...


The only problem is to find the time to do it... as there are so many other works to do, and I have just two hands
I can't promise anything precise, it could take a longer wait, if it goes like for the temple itself... I thought it would take about a month, instead it took almost two!
And it was just the basic temple, some add ons are still to be done!



Fortunately all the castigs worked fine... I even managed to cast the big basement empty underneat, the casting took 5 times longer but saved a lot of resin and reduced the weight.

The only problem was with the columns, I hoped to cast 8 at time but in that way I got too many faulty pieces to scrap, and I had to make a new mold to cast just 2 or 3 columns at time, despite it make the work longer.

The overall quality is good enough, perhaps not always 100% perfect but sure satisfying, there are no many imperfections... and after all some empty bubbles and protruding resin sferes sometimes are unavoidable, even in professional castings and series productions!
And fortunately such imperfections are easy to correct.

As I already explained, for the first model I assembled... maybe there are few retuches to make the model perfect, but nothing difficult or unusual for an assembly model kit or a resin casting.
I mend the main imperfections I spot in my castings, but I casted over 200 pieces and I may have missed something, in case I apologize.





And now It's extremely interesting to discuss about our common interest about ancient history, architecture and particularly about Etruscans in this case…
It is always a pleasure to share opinions and knowledge with friends like, MrCyrns, SBerry, Frankzett and all the others!


I had to make a compromise and I choose to make something which I presumed could be realistic in some cases, and meanwhile also versatile for conversions.

I'm not an expert, but sure there was several variations of this kind of basic temple, the main scheme was the same but there was many changes of styles and different influences along the centuries…

Concerning the fronton for example, at least in some cases Etruscans had also basrelief like the Greek and later Romans, Etruscans were quite keen on basreliefs and decorations.

The fronton of Pyrgi or Talamon, despite the few fragments survived… are two of the most famous and beautiful example of Etruscan basrelief frontons… and it is evident that they inspired the fantasy epic scene I reproduced!





You guessed right about the standard version of a versatil basic temple, which can be realistic as simple as it is, or enriched and modified in many ways to represent different sceneries and cultures.

I think such kind can be considered a sort of "stereotype" of most ancient temples, the main alternative of classic Greek style temple.
In fact, if you type "Roman or Romanic" or "Etruscan" + "temple" in any search engine sure you will immediately see some images of the same exact temple or something extremely similar.



As you see, apart the few roof decorations and a frame along the roof edges, here is the temple I made.

And here comes to the other roof and wall decorations I had in mind…which are exactly those we need to make a more complete and decorated Etruscan version, like that in the second photo you posted….

For example, the front basrelief can be placed backwards or replaced from a cardboard triangle, and assembled deeper under the roof like a plain wall...
adding a little strip of roof will complete the frame, to recreate an empty fronton without basrelief.

Furthermore the longitudinal strips of wall decorations I planned can be used also to raise a bit the roof, which will remind more the Greek style…

However, I will have to make a compromise also in this case...
There could be several different kind of possible decorations, statues, frontons etc. I have to choose one or two, and consider the work it involves the making of the masters, the moldmaking and the castings... it is not so easy, and sometimes even something possible is not advisable!


I suppose that with some more changes and further conversions and add ons, at least in some cases it could represent also some later temples of Roman culture… as long as I know this basic kind of temple influenced deeply the Vitruvian architecture, it spreaded in architecture and developed with many changes but keeping the same proportions… after all the same base is quite recognizable in many later buildings or Christian Romanic Churches, the shape and proportions remain the same or very similar, just less columns open space and more room inside.

I wish I could make also a proper Greek style temple… but apart the time to do it, there are also some practical problems.

Casting such large resin parts is not easy, it requires a large amount of resin for the casting, and silicon for the molds… and a proper nice looking Greek style temple have to be relatively bigger, even just to have enough space for the columns all around… and more columns means also more pieces to cast, another thing which would raise the cost too much...

So such model would be probably too difficult and expensive to cast, at least for me!

I think I already gave in to a too difficult challenge with this temple, at least as a first attempt to produce a building!
Sure I will do more buildings in future, but probably the next ones will be a bit smaller probably, and possibly with less pieces and a bit simpler too… to keep a reasonably cheap and affordable cost and price, and because otherwise my "home made" casting require too much time…
I have no many other choices at the moment, at least unless I can get the buildings produced in series from a casting factory, like some of my figures.


I'll update this and the WIP thread when something new will be ready!

[Cryns]

Phersu thank you so much for your extensive reply.

I admire your wide knowledge of the Etruscan and Italian early history.
You made your points clear to me and I am completely convinced (and educated by you) about the many possibilities of ancient Italian temple structures and combinations.

I think you don't have to excuse yourself in any way. And all of us will understand that producing such large building in different variations is complicated and expensive.

Also I visited your website (again).
It is so great and incredible.
From all producers of 20mm figures you are the one that comes closest to my world of interest. I would like to buy and paint so many of your figures, both for my Roman/Germanic as for my Macedonian/Greek/Phoenician collections. Especially many Etruscans will suite my city of Tyre very well.

[sberry]

The discussion on how a “real” Etruscan temple has to look like is quite interesting.
When I built my own specimen, I had a ceramic cast of the gable at hand, which I simply wanted to use in this project because I had no other use for it. I was of course aware that this wouldn’t fit the image of a standard Etruscan temple, but, as stated by FrankZ and Phersu, there are examples of transitional forms, integrating Greek and Etruscan elements. In particular, the open gable, often considered as one of the hallmarks of a “true” Etruscan temple, disappeared around the 4th cent. BC and was replaced by the closed front familiar from Greek temples.
And as extant examples of intact Etruscan temples are not really over-abundant, our notions of the “standard” Etruscan temple are heavily based on the description by Vitruvius. He is, for instance, the basis for the famous model showing the (so-called) Apollo Temple of Veii. Interestingly, Tim Cornell in his “The Beginnings of Rome” has put forward some strong arguments that the whole concept rests on shaky ground: According to Cornell, Vitruvius (and the modern scholarship following him) has erroneously considered archaic features of architecture, which may have been common to Etruria, Rome and other regions of Italy before the onset of strong Greek influences, as specifically Etruscan.
In summary: There was not a single “standard” version of the Etruscan temple, and it was not genuinely Etruscan.

[Frankzett]

Of course Vitruvius lived more than five centuries after the Etruscan culture. In modern archaeology there are some doubts with his theories. And indeed when I do my post, I follow an other interpretation of an etruscan temple than you.
Many interpretations of archaeologists based in the terracotta debris of the ornaments; so we can assume that the roof has eaves which are projecting wide over the entablature (in greek style the eaves projecting minimal), and the the terracotta gable is covering tiles, rafters and the purlins. So -with or without a fronton - we have this heavy flat look to the roof, what - after Vitruvius - is caracteristic for the etruscan style architecture.

Greetings
Frank

[Phersu]

Mr. Cryns
Phersu thank you so much for your extensive reply.
I admire your wide knowledge of the Etruscan and Italian early history.

Thank you, but I'm not an expert!
I'm just curious and have opportunity to to learn from books and more expert friends, and I like to discuss about these matters, trying to fit the few evidences with all the possible and plausible interpretations!

It is very interesting and wide matter of discussion, and I agree and understand all the different points of view... which are all plausible in a way or the other, as we are talking about something which sure transformed, evolved and was rearranged many times through many centuries, and reinterpreted by different cultures and tastes, and even personally from the architects and the builders, and the various building materials and techniques, sure imposed several variations...
Apart the few famous temples of which we have a precise idea... I like to think the minor temples, which were more common, were probably more affected by various influences which evolved different styles along the time... and sometimes after a while the different styles evolved probably melted again, so I think is very difficult to get a precise idea of wat a common temple was really like.

Having to produce a model I had to choose, and of course I preferred something simpler (and cheaper as possible) which is also more versatyle, despite the inavoidable inaccuracies to represent something more particular and real... something that can be achieved with some add ons which I will make later, or with some modifications that many modelers can do on their own.

Now I started sculpting figures once again for a while, there are a lot of works in program and I'm always late on schedule!
However meanwhile, during the pauses, I started to make the first small add ons to complete the temple scenery: an altar and two pedestals with bassreliefs.





Some of the bassreliefs are pure fantasy, a couple or three instead are inspired to real basreliefs representing famous mithological or historical characters... in the images are small, but let's see if I made them good enough: do you recognize anything?

And then some 25 mm figures of gods, for the statues of Dyonisos, Mars and Athena at the moment...







All inspired and very resembling to various famous ancient statues, despite no copied precisely from anyone in particular... just a fantasy a mix of various features from those statues I like more and I had in mind, my personal Pantheon!

[DickerThomas]

Hello Leonardo,

these look phantastic

i think about buying one of your temples... maybe ...

[Kostis Ornerakis]

I like very much the altar and pedestals. Your Mars is eccellent.
For my taste Dyonisos sould be more ugly ( but sculpting is fine ) and Athena sould be dressed in thiner cloth. But that's just an opinion.

[Cryns]

Great additions to your temple Phersu.

do you recognize anything?

Let me try to read the basreliefs from left to right:

1: Herakles / Hercules with club fighting a lion
2: Achilles with Hektors body behind his chariot
3: Centaur fighting a Greek.
4: Dyonisos / Bacchus dancing and celebrating with others?

I like the little owl, symbol of Athens and wisdom.
Kostis has a point here:

Athena sould be dressed in thiner cloth.

Her front is alright but from the back she looks heavy and lacks the Greek elegance.

Dyonisos sould be more ugly

As far as I know Dyonisos / Bachus was depicted both as satyr and as athletic human so its just a choice.

I am looking forward to see more.

[Phersu]

Thank you my friends!
Yesterday I tried to make a 9 mm Chimera...



I also started a Pegasus of the same size, converting one of the old horses from the 6 mm scale chariot I made some years ago... the right size fot smaller statues and for the top of the roof decorations.

DickerThomas
Hello Leonardo,

these look phantastic

i think about buying one of your temples... maybe ...

I casted only 11 of these temple models, and 8 are still available, and however I can eventually cast some more in case I run out.
Despite I duobt I will run out soon
I hoped it would be easier and quicker to produce these models by myself, to be able to offer them a bit cheaper, but I'm afraid these buildings of mine will remain very very limited editions.
Unfortunately I can't afford to produce such large model in series, and however it wouldn't be that much cheaper anyay.

Let me try to read the basreliefs from left to right:

1: Herakles / Hercules with club fighting a lion
2: Achilles with Hektors body behind his chariot
3: Centaur fighting a Greek.
4: Dyonisos / Bacchus dancing and celebrating with others?

Athena sould be dressed in thiner cloth.

Her front is alright but from the back she looks heavy and lacks the Greek elegance.

Dyonisos sould be more ugly

As far as I know Dyonisos / Bachus was depicted both as satyr and as athletic human so its just a choice.

You get right 3,5 out on 4 MrCyrns!

3 actually represent a Centaur indeed, and he could be fighting, aftr all he hold a bow and rest of the relief if so small and not so clear... but I had in mind another scene about some particular Centaur, in fact the other character in front of him don't seem to be fighting... perhaps with this hint it becomes too easy to guess who!

Actually in number 2, in the pedestal there was not enough room to put also Hektor behind Achilles chariot, so we can see only the rope... or it's one arm? which look quite funny (perhaps not for Hektor)... how could I resist to leave it?

You are right, despite sometimes the Menrva-Minerva version is represented in heavier clothes than the Greek Athena... due different climate or local influences about clothing styles I suppose.
But this Athen definitely looks a bit too chubby!
I had to make the skirt thicker to reach the shield and fill the gap (for an easier casting) and I wanted an imponent goddes rather than a thin figure... but I exagerated too much with the putty and the thickness...
Never mind, I still like that unusual well built Athena, but I definitely must act practice a bit and get used on sculpting figures once again, after 3 months spent mostly making and casting the temple!

Of course I preferred the old Greek and Etruscan version of Dionysos-Fufluns depicted as young Satyr, rather than the old ugly fat man character which diffused later in the Roman culture...

Perhaps in future I will make new versions of thinner Athena and an older and fatter Bacchus... is not so easy, and there are so many other things to do, but is fun to sculpt such unusual characters!

[Cryns]

some particular Centaur, in fact the other character in front of him don't seem to be fighting... perhaps with this hint it becomes too easy to guess who!

No not at all since you still leave different options open to us:

- It can be the kind centaur Chiron visited by Jason.
- It can be Ixion and Hera though I am not sure if Ixion was already a centaur himself when they breeded centaurs together with a cloudy fake Hera.
- It can be Pholus and Hercules.
- But it can also be Chiron with Achilles, Asklepius or Hercules.
- It could even be Nessus trying to rape Dianira.

That Chimera: is that a sculpt or a casted and may be mono tone painted reproduction?

[Phersu]

No not at all since you still leave different options open to us:

- It can be the kind centaur Chiron visited by Jason.
- It can be Ixion and Hera though I am not sure if Ixion was already a centaur himself when they breeded centaurs together with a cloudy fake Hera.
- It can be Pholus and Hercules.
- But it can also be Chiron with Achilles, Asklepius or Hercules.
- It could even be Nessus trying to rape Dianira.

That Chimera: is that a sculpt or a casted and may be mono tone painted reproduction?

That's right!
Chiron is one of my favorite characters, I ment to represent him teaching a young Achilles how to use a bow... and could be with several other famous characters, as he teached to many.
Asklepios is another character I planned, of course will one of the next figures.

I tried to represent the same scene a first time also in the other basement too, despite it didn't came out so clear and can't be seen in the other images... hardly recognizable, along with Chiron and Achilles there are supposed to be also Patroclus and the father Peleus (with his "Old Pelion" spear)...



By the other side another particular character that I particularly like; the Etruscan Hero which fight with the plough... even rogher at close view or in enlarged images, and not so clear... but somehow recognizable, and despite all I think the overall visual effect once painted is not too bad.

The Chimera is the master I sculpted, but of course I will make it available like all the rest... or at least I will try...



I started to make the mold today, but it will be very difficult to cast such chimera with resin, especially for the goat horns.
And being so small it will be very delicate, I made the snake-tail much thicker for this reason, otherwise it would be too fragile even to be pulled out from the mold... and perhaps I will have to put a copper wire plait inside as support.

Concerning the color, it probably suppose to be painted to be historically correct, just like like the fronton and statues... and the basreliefs on the altars, which I represented as unpainted plain stone instead than painted... because I think it look nicer and give a better visual effect, especially on very small things like these.
Sp probably I will paint the Chimera as a plain unpainted bronze statue.
But of course it's up to everybody's choice, as for the rest we can't be 100% sure and I suppose some exceptions can be always justified and plausible, even just for a matter of personal taste!

[Cryns]

the Etruscan Hero which fight with the plough

Thats a great character I never heard of before. Does he have a name?

too fragile even to be pulled out from the mold... and perhaps I will have to put a copper wire plait inside as support.

That is a very good idea I never though of myself.

I started to make the mold today

Could you please show us a picture of your mold? It must be two halves.
I like to hear what materials you use for the mold:
Is it stiff or very flexible?
How long is potlife time?

[Phersu]

It is a great pleasure to talk and deep all these interesting subjects related that come out, both historically and techically for our hobby!
And fortunately my internet connection keep works, despite very slow, below 100k/s… better than nothing and enough to write and upload some images!

Mr. Cryns
Thats a great character I never heard of before. Does he have a name?

The "hero with plough" is represented on the basreliefs of several Etruscan sarcophagus, and if I remember well also on some frescos… but unfortunately as far as I know his name and his story are unknown, I couldn't find more about, I must ask to some more expert friends.

I simply love that image of a strong mild big farmer, who harmlessly mind his own business until someone comes in arms with bad intentions, and he turn his plough into a giant club to wipe them out!

a copper wire plait inside as support.
That is a very good idea I never though of myself.

Metal supports inside the resin are a damn tricky but very useful thing, despite it takes an extra work and makes the casting more complicate… it prevents most breaking, and eventually a broken part don't come off anyway so is easy to repair, just a little crack which can be easily and steady fixed with a bit of glue!
A single thicker metal wire would be stronger, and sometimes better.
But in this case is not easy to bend it exactly to fit in the mold cavity… so is much easier with a plait of thin copper wires, which still prevent from breaking, and allow also little eventual bending heating the resin.
The irregular copper plait shape also stick much better to the resin, compared to a smooth round wire, it welds inside the resin, so even bending is unlikely that bits of the thin resin layer breaks and come off once hardened.

Could you please show us a picture of your mold? It must be two halves.
I like to hear what materials you use for the mold:
Is it stiff or very flexible?
How long is potlife time?

Here is the Chimera in first half of the mold!
There was some free space so I put also the wing for the pegasus, in the other finished mold on the right there's the Minerva.

Just a frame of Lego bricks, and normal cheap commercial white silicon in this case (that for plumbers).
This mold is small so it will take just a couple or three days to harden every valve.
I use liquid bi-component silicons only for bigger and deeper molds, softness or harndness and pot life depends from the compound (usually pot life is 1-2 hours, hardening in 1 up to 4 days).

I don't have any professional casting equipment (no vacuum chamber, injector, spinner or vibrator etc.) just basic silicon molds and pots.
So, especially for these little pieces, or other very complex shapes, I use a particular unusual method that is not very efficient for many aspects, it takes longer and therefore suitable only for very limited quantities (that's why my home made figures are expensive).
Besides is the only one way I managed to prevent too many scraps, especially casting figures and pieces with deep sottosquadra.
If someone can suggest and share better solutions is mostly wellcome!!!

As you see it's a normal double valved mold, but without funnel slot and no air vents, I use to call it "sandwitch mold".
I leak the liquid resin in both open valves, taking care that all the cavities are filled and removing any air bubble manually with a tip… it must be done quite quickly because then comes the tricky moment: before the resin start to get thicker I close the mold with a quick precise move (which sometimes don't work, if the resin leak out from the cavity I got another scrap piece).
Then I squeeze gently to leak out the resin excess, and keep the mold close tight but gently until the resin hardens.
When I open the mold and release the casting of course there is flash all around, but if the casting is done properly is just a thin film that comes off completely or mostly almost by itself… and after all is very easy to clean perfectly the resin pieces from mold lines (compared to plastic or metal) despite this also takes a little further work.

[Cryns]

Thank you so much for posting all this usefull information.
Incredible how basic and simple your methods are.

At the moment I am experimenting with complicated 3-part molds of liquid bi-component silicons in which I inject resin with a medical syringe.

It is refreshing to read how you just add two cavities with resin filled valves together as a 'pressing' mold. Never thought of that.

After a lot of try and error I figured out the use of adding or cutting air canals is idle: a lot of work with very little result. The air inside the resin won't get out by those canals and still creates little holes (airbubbles) on the surface of my casted model.

Cutting no air canals at all anymore but covering the molds with a thin layer of baby powder dust, has a surprisingly effective result: the air bubbles inside the resin casting don't move to the surface (or get dissolved by the powder when reaching the mold rubber) but mainly stay inside the body or object. It makes my figures weaker with that air inside their body but their outside is much smoother now. But very probable you know all this already.

Did you make a matrix first for this Chimera before you made the first silicon mold halve?

And how did you cast Dyonisus' left arm and hand with the wine cup since that part is projecting forward?