Work in Progress

Tyre 332 BC

Posted by Mr. Cryns on 04 Apr 2016, 18:30

Beano Boy wrote:In commenting on this topic i was also supporting you.

Yes Beano I know that and I appreciate this a lot!
Even with some harsh critics you would still support me. :-D
Since that is the best way to improve my technical skills and our common historical knowledge and the overall quality level of this whole forum. Also it sharpens the brain... at least my brain. :eh:
So you are, like all of you, welcome to post historic or technical background material again if you feel for it!

Beano Boy wrote:To Raise Up: means to make higher.

I am very sorry, my English is not good enough, I have often difficulties with understanding your sophisticated British language (or is it street slang?) in many other posts by you :oops:

Beano Boy wrote:Prefabricated pieces made on their sides and then assembled: coming together piece by piece makes it possible to raise gradually anything

Yes you are absolutely right in this :yeah:

Beano Boy wrote:One has to agree Tyre was built up upon an island of rock?

Yes, not only build on a rock but in those days the sea was lower (or the earth under the rock was higher) so the rock carrying the walls looked higher too. So you have a point here too.

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Beano Boy wrote:As to the actual stonework from this place,it`s removal was most probable during the period when Alexandria was being built

Don't you think it was still there during the crusades? By then Tyre was still (or again) a strong fortress and was besieged again.

Beano Boy wrote:It might have had if broken in half Gt YARMOUTH through its middle.

This is an example that is typical for the humoristic or cryptic lines you end many of your replies with: I understand Gt Yarmouth is a coastal town close to your home. But I have no idea what you are trying to say here :oops:
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Mr. Cryns  Netherlands

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Posted by Wiking on 05 Apr 2016, 01:03

Thank you Mr. Cryns for the useful link.

Your great work go on. Impressive.
As this discussion.
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Wiking  Germany
 
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Posted by Beano Boy on 05 Apr 2016, 02:08

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One could go around and around like in the picture above of higher Mathematics taken from the Greek. If one continues to paddle backwards up a stream of criticism from you.
To Quote you, "deserves special attention." Who?
1st: Paul`s work getting worse.
2nd : My friend Dalibors colors used are wrong.
This is not good.You will lose friends before you make any.

i know how to play the game of applied psychology so 3rd: Do not direct your sites,"deserves special attention "at me. ___________________________PAUL
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Posted by Bluefalchion on 05 Apr 2016, 06:32

Mr. Cryns your modeling is mind-blowing. Your inter-personal skills could use work. Not everyone can do works that are as good as yours, nor as historically accurate (if that's really possible with such an ancient subject). But that's okay. We all accept each other and make room for vast ranges of skills. It's always possible to find something to criticize, but it must be done in a delicate fashion.
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Posted by Kostis Ornerakis on 05 Apr 2016, 08:06

Impressive work. Amazing historical documendation. I admire that you make a research before you express your opinion. :notworthy:
The hard part now :oops: : Please less critical debate.
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Kostis Ornerakis  Greece
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Posted by Mr. Cryns on 06 Apr 2016, 10:12

Thanks all of you for your very nice replies and the very angry ones.

As you must have understood by now I am missing debate in this forum - almost any debate at all - concerning the historical context and the art of our hobby since the day I joined Benno's forum. :(

I regret this very much but I will try to live with that and accept this.

Bluefalchion wrote:it must be done in a delicate fashion

So if my fashion is still not delicate enough to your taste in the future, please point at it again Bluefalchion.

Beano Boy wrote:"deserves special attention." Who?

Please BB don't try to fight phantoms that are not there in the first place.
I never criticized you in the past and I will never do that in the future.
So don't panic.

Since Peter and Paul explained me in a very gentle way that counting buttons and more than one critical suggestion per person a month is not what Benno's Forum stands for, I stopped writing any constructive suggestions to all other contributors.
Debating my own topic was all that was left.
And what happens?
People are still getting frustrated.

Beano Boy wrote:Do not direct your sites,"deserves special attention "at me.

This is just another typical example of miscommunication. BB you can write in your mother language but I can not. So you have a huge advantage to me. I was only writing 'replying BB' trying to make clear there will be another reply directed to Frankzett coming up next. Since Frank wrote a very nice, critical and very interesting reply to my many questions. I tried to separate one answer reply from another. I did this out of politeness but you take it as an offense. Why?
Are you angry Frankzett is underlining my statement in our debate about 60 meter high walls?

And please let us not go back to the topics about under-exposed pictures of very nicely painted knights and Valejo German camo green for French horsemen since we don't want to do all of those discussions again I think.
And it is very off topic. This topic is supposed to be about Tyre 332 BC.

If I intimidate any of you by saying even a harsh critic directed at me would support me, I am sorry. Don't worry. I will not direct them to you.

So where did we end when this whole subject was making a detour because of a 60 meter high wall?

Yes, it was the ancient Tyrian artillery towers. I only showed part of them so I will come up soon with more pictures.

But First it is time to reply to the remarkable answers of Frankzett.
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Posted by igor13 on 07 Apr 2016, 06:56

fantastic work till now
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Posted by Mr. Cryns on 08 Apr 2016, 11:09

Dear Frankzett,

Nice to hear from you after some silence.
And thank you so much for reviewing my work and answering my many questions.
I am impressed by your historical knowledge and your personal vision on this subject.

Frankzett wrote:with the exception of the tower with the visible timbers - it looks some kind of Bronze Age fashioned - not suitable for a important citystate like Tyre in this time.


You are absolutely right. The design is from Hattusa so as old or even older as the Trojan War. What do you think? Is it the timber heads or the many double windows that create this bronze age look? Or both? Since modifications are still possible.

Frankzett wrote:We have this feature with the reliefs of the Heroon of Trysa


Good you remind me of this. I must have seen it, I was in that museum, but probably did not pay much attention to it since it was long time ago in 'my Napoleonic period'. Now you mention the Heroon, I watched my books again and it is depicted in many of these. It looks like many reconstructors and sculptors used it as a basic reference for 4th C. BC. I can see the whole range of Hät Greek Mercenary Hoplites marching by.

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Frankzett wrote:The point with the Persepolis costumes, I think there are much ceremonial costumes of suddueded nations of the 6th cent.


Right. I did not think of the ceremonial context but that is most probable.
Also I should not have mixed up Syrians with Tyrians since Tyre was at the ancient international highway (the Mediterranean Sea) and Syria was more inland so more traditional and less absorbing the latest international fashion.

So I try to keep the Greek fashion as my main focus from now on. (the Persian fashioned units are already finished)
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Posted by Frankzett on 08 Apr 2016, 16:27

...and There is the so called Alexander-Sarcophagus of course ...

What was up to date with the citywalls of an important city state? I think, there were great progress with besieging technology in the age of Philipp II. in the mid of the 4th century. So there can be more embrasures in the walls for gastraphetes, oxybeles or early style ballista.
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Posted by KGV on 08 Apr 2016, 16:50

Heroon of Trysa

There was me thinking this was a version of Helen of Troy.......

How stupid am I?


Great work by the way :thumbup:
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Posted by Graeme on 09 Apr 2016, 03:29

Mr Cryns. Your temple is quite beautiful, I love the texture and colouring of the stonework, the purple marble pillars, the panelled door and the brightly coloured pediment.The hand sculpted putty and the creation of lions bodies by sanding Styrofoam are most impressive.

You said you found some of the intricate work therapeutic. Well I find looking at the finished product quite Therapeutic, I think it's the harmony of the colours.

I know you like constructive criticism but I just can't find any.
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Posted by Mr. Cryns on 09 Apr 2016, 11:09

Thank you gentlemen for your nice replies and good suggestions.

On my trip through Boiotia (the area around Thebes) I found an unknown book on an open air market for Greek readers only. Kostis, I wish you were here for translation.

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Though it may be written and drawn for Greek children in the first place, I think its the most lively, detailed and complete illustration I have ever seen of this amphibious siege. Compliments to the artist who's name I can not read :oops:

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After taking a closer look at the temple and houses we must conclude these Greek style tyled roofs are very steep. And almost all other sources show Phoenician houses with flat roofs both in the Phoenician coastal towns as in the Cartagenean territories. So this raises some questions. Is the artist may be expressing his own Greek background?

I decided to make at least one such tower.

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The whole tower is one piece of foam. Tho whole roof is a second piece.
Since there is no glue needed and almost no measuring for matching separate wallparts together, working in blue foam goes incredible fast.

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Plastered mudbrick on a rough cut stone base.

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I used Roman ballista's here. They are a bit too modern.

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Persian dressed crew of Zvezda, Hat and Mars.

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On my road from Athens to Thebe I found the Gyphtokastro that guarded the main ancient route between these two powerfull states. Scholars opinions differ but this is probably a design of the 5th or early 4th C.

Outside facing Thebes:
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Inside facing Athens:
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Rock and tower are one piece of foam. The wooden floor is a separate element clamped between the walls. So still no glue needed.

In my first attempt I tried H0 scale plastic tileroof.

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I found these tiles too tiny and regular, not in line with the rest of my buildings.
So I made a second roof of foam by pressing its surface very hard with the blade of a screwdriver.

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To the topstone of the door I added an Egyptian styled second stone to direct the weight of the construction away from the doorway.

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Corners of such towers had ornamental straight edges. I forgot to make these and added them later, after the painting was done. Therefore the seams between blocks look messy at the corner.

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At the norhtern coast of the Corinthian Gulf in a place called Alyki I found another such fortress.

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There was also a single standing watchtower.
Look at its ashlar stone construction system! I can only see one continuous horizontal line.
Isn't that wonderfull and pure beauty?

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We climbed the tower and found this.

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What looks as a crumbled down inside wall at first, is in fact the steps leading to the wooden topfloor.
I imagine it can have looked like this:

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In Athens there is not much left of the famous 5th C. Dipylon Gate. The information board on location shows towers with two sided roofs just like the recontructions by Osprey.

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A very recent digital reconstruction shows four sided roofs, very much in style with those of the Greek illustration on top of this post.

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I followed the 'old school' roof construction.

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Wall sections of a standard heigth can be added in all desired variations when these towers are used for other campaings and different ancient towns.

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Shutters open downward to protect artillery crews from enemy archers firing from low angles.

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Wooden beam heads are visible, supporting the wooden topfloor.
The lower archery floor had a massive stone base.

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My next problem is some of my artillery elements bring unwelcome vegetation into the buildings.

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Posted by Kostis Ornerakis on 09 Apr 2016, 21:25

First of all impressive and quick executed work. You are right, probably the book was meant for children. You are welcome to pm me scanned images to translate. Referring the image in your post, I will make a brief translation anti-clockwise.
Main text:
Though Alexander defeated Darius army, Persians still had strong naval fleet. He was feeling insecure with the persian fleet in mediterranean sea and since his fleet wasn't strong enough he decided to occupy any harbor which supplied Persians with food and water, in order to eliminate them. The first two harbors surrender to Alexander but Tyrians resisted. They thought they could win him as their home town was builded in a fortified island. The siege of Tyre lasted 7 months, which was Alexander's toughest operation but he manage to win the fight at last.

Leather covers for the soldiers building the sea wall.

Building a sea wall
Alexander order the making of a sea wall to connect Tyre with coast. Soldiers drove wooden pickets in the sea bottom and covered it with rocks. It was more difficult as they were approaching city walls because the water became deeper and the Tyrians bombarded them with fire and stone from their catapults.

Reaching the Tyrian walls
The size of the finished wall was 60 meter wide and 800 meters long. Unfortunately Alexander couldn't destroy the walls opposite of the sea wall.

Tyrians piled large rocks to prevent the ships approach the island.

Victory at last
Macedonians sieged Tyre for months until 332 BC when the main part of Persian fleet surrendered so Alexander had new ships under his command and he could attack from every side. After their victory Macedonians crucified Tyrians to intimidate other cities citizens.

Two ships binded together made a strong platform for siege machines.

Emergency towers
On the top of the walls Tyrians constructed wooden towers. These towers protected them from enemy catapults and they were offering Tyrians wider line of fire.

Clever trick
Tyrians threw tridents attached with rope at their enemies shields in order to pull them.

Soldier aiming with the catapult.

Catapults were operated with springs made of animal's skins and intestines.

Tyrians were filling sand in their shields and tempered it on pyres.
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Posted by Kostis Ornerakis on 10 Apr 2016, 10:22

I believe, illustrator of the book, might be Stephen Biesty. ;-)
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Posted by Fredericus-Rex on 10 Apr 2016, 15:36

great work of you
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Fredericus-Rex  Germany
 
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Posted by Mr. Cryns on 10 Apr 2016, 18:26

Mr. Cryns wrote:Kostis, I wish you were here for translation.

And you are here!
Kostis how can I thank you for your help?
My book collection has so many titles and magazines in Greek text only.

Kostis Ornerakis wrote: illustrator of the book, might be Stephen Biesty


A very good guess. But we were both wrong.

Εικονογράφηση (=iconographer) ΠΙΤΕΡ ΝΤΕΝΝΙΣ

How could I mistaken it for an unknown Greek artist? It turnes out the illustrator is my heroe and my visual historic guru Peter Dennis of whom I possess so many great books.

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As you see there is an English version. So I better buy that one so it saves you a lot of work in the future! ;-)
Your idea it must be Stephen Biesty triggered me to research him. I only possess one book of him. The interesting thing about all this, is Peter Dennis seems to have adapted some of Biesty's style for chopping up Tyre and Alexander and mixing different scales, inserts, close ups etc. Your hint suddenly made me realise there is a whole unknown range of very interesting non-Osprey books by both illustrators that I should have a closer look at. These might be for children as target audience but often that makes it only more interesting for what I need it for since it is so visual.

So how can I thank you for that?

And some other thing. Now I know its Peter Dennis I take his interpretation of Tyre even more serious. I know Dennis is not our all knowing father but if I can't follow his interpretation of history, who else can we follow?
Time to make more towers, walls and tiled roofs according to his drawing.

About your translation: most of it (as we could have guessed) is identical to other text in other books. But some details surprise me. Like this one:
Kostis Ornerakis wrote:Clever trick
Tyrians threw tridents attached with rope at their enemies shields in order to pull them.

It is a bit difficult for me to understand how this works in a battle,
I want to find out which historian mentioned this trick: Diodorus or Arrian?
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Posted by Kostis Ornerakis on 10 Apr 2016, 19:45

I supposed that illustrator is S. Biesty because of the style. I possess 2 of his books translated to Greek text and they are excellent references to their themes.
So how can I thank you for that?

You have allready did.
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Posted by ADM on 11 Apr 2016, 00:50

Your work on this project is just superb ! :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
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Posted by Bluefalchion on 11 Apr 2016, 05:08

As usual, Mr. Cryns, your display of skill and research is stupendous. And you are even getting a hang of this delicate approach to mild criticisms and disagreements!
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Posted by Beano Boy on 11 Apr 2016, 10:55

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More research revealed this map,and considerabley much more besides.
It was a good learning curb of curiosity. BB
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