Work in Progress

Tyre 332 BC

Posted by Salaberry on 02 Apr 2017, 01:54

:shock:
OPOPOÏ !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:shock:
OK, I'll admit I only discovered this post and am obviously a few hours of viewing behind everybody else, but I am speechless so far.
This is craftsmanship at its best.
I'm a fan.

:yeah:

Sala
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Salaberry  Canada
 
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Posted by Wiking on 05 Apr 2017, 16:49

It is always a pleasure to see your work.
And all based on historical facts! As an example for walls.

Mr. Cryns wrote:
As you see its not a 90 degree corner but something between 93 and 96.
That is because to add to the circular shape of the whole town or fortress.

Interesting too is how they transport there Amfora`s inside a ship.
I never think about that in technical. The Amfora`s that I see are at the bottom of the see in a film. In fragments mostly.

For true a lot of work nicely done.
:yeah:
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Posted by Mr. Cryns on 06 Apr 2017, 11:52

Dear Stenfalk, Salaberry and Wiking,

Thank you so much for your encouraging compliments. :-D

Wiking wrote:I never think about that in technical.

Wiking its interesting what you are saying here: I did not think of those technical aspects too when only a few years ago I stuffed that souvenir-shipmodel of mine with amfora's. But since I started presenting my work on the internet (first at the Hat Forum and when that was dead for a year I switched to Benno's) I was aware of the fact that hundreds of people will judge my work. That made me think twice before I create and photograph something new. When I started making molds last year, I realize a wrong decision made today will gain regret (by myself) and disappointment (by others) in the future. My single mistake will be multiplied. Five times? Twenty times? :shock: Thats twenty times technical failure! :eh: Which is worse than a single failure, isn't it?. :mrgreen:

Wiking wrote:The Amfora`s that I see are at the bottom of the see in a film. In fragments mostly.

Yes but you should realize that is the archeological treasure!
Amfora's on land were destroyed after use, like paperboard boxes today.
The deep see conserved the way they were stored. Sometimes even the complete shape and size of the disappeared ship is saved for ever by the way the amfora's are found:

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You can even see a line where the mast-supporting beam was situated.
If you would dig into such pile of amfora's you may end up with the wooden hull of a ship and the lowest amfora's still in place.

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Lack of oxygene kept the wood intact. So I hope after today you will look at an underwater movie-amphora from a complete new perspective :-D
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Posted by Mr. Cryns on 07 Apr 2017, 10:39

Let me introduce Gerard Boom to you:

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Everybody visiting gaming&modeling conventions in central Europe knows Gerard Boom for selling minth green stone pattern foam boards for scenery building.

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He gives workshops (mostly in Germany) and also makes ships for 28mm pirate skirmish games. His company is called Shifting Lands.

https://www.shiftinglands.com/

In Germany they call him Der Styrodur Gott.
After one visit to my house in 2016 to see my Tyre332BC buildings he wanted to make some ancient buildings too and within some weeks he finished this Babylonian houseblock:

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Isn't it great?

Gerard invited me to his home in return and I asked him to teach me cutting ships from dentist plaster which is a little stronger and finer than ordinary plaster (gypsum).

A pirate ship he made and two of my wooden ships (under construction) januari 2017:
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Here is a Dutch boat he made, casted in resin and painted but originally it was cut in plaster:

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He made me a styrodur mold and poured the plaster in:

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He made himself a mold too and prepared two 'working beds' for us:

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He gave me one of his 'wondertools' and showed me how to use it:

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I was surprised to see his boat did not break apart when he hollowed out its hull:

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So I copied his method and made the exterior shape of a Mesopotamian river boat:

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Then the inside was cut:

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I was really surprised to experience how easy it was to cut a wood pattern in plaster and how nice its wood vein relief turned out:

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But now I had to finish its inside too. I decided to drive it to the limit, making the hull as thin as possible:

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As you see I crossed that limit:

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Holes in my hull. Nice, realistic holes, its a nice boat wreck, but not what I wanted:

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Gerard Boom knows where to stop before his hulls break apart.

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For me this technique is not accurate enough and its impossible to drill holes for mast, rigging and rudder. But for skirmish 28mm games (where mast and sail are unwanted obstacles) its perfect and a very fast and simple way to make a boat or ship.
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Posted by MABO on 07 Apr 2017, 14:39

Very interesting, thanks for sharing.
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Posted by Kostis Ornerakis on 07 Apr 2017, 18:43

Excellent technique. :thumbup: :-D
MABO wrote:Very interesting, thanks for sharing.

I also thank you for sharing. :-D
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Kostis Ornerakis  Greece
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Posted by Wiking on 07 Apr 2017, 19:05

Yes,the Babylonian houseblock is Great. But for 28mm.
The real problem with full house is that you lost a lot of space at the Dio base.
Just for roof and walls. :(
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Posted by Kekso on 08 Apr 2017, 12:04

Mr. Cryns wrote: Isn't it great?


It is, for sure :thumbup:
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Kekso  Croatia

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Posted by Mr. Cryns on 12 Apr 2017, 11:26

Thank you very much gentlemen for your nice replies.

Today I like to show you the result of some of your feedback and criticism which helped me developing my project.

despertaferro wrote: because I think you're a perfectionist, let me tell you what I think about some very minor details about the anchors: maybe they are too big for the boats size: To pull an anchor this size from the water level to the deck you probably need some kind of pulley system.

Despertaferro this convinced me to make a smaller anchor (middle/right), the old one is shown at the left side:

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The new one is based on this picture, a reconstruction of an anchor found near the Bulgarian coast:
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A first cast:
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Sberry the movie you posted convinced me to make this:
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Based upon this:
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I think its a disputable item to such an old ship (I did not like the stairs for sure) but now at least there is some possibility to fasten those 8 halyards and those can be manned from the steering man's position.

I also made these blocks from wooden beads (shown at top)....
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...after you showed me this:
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Remember this sailor I made in Alex' online sculpting workshop?:
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It was based upon this bronze engraving:
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Frankzett wrote:But I suppose wooden barrels weren't in use in the greek world. We see this technical feature first with the La Tene culture and then later adopted and used by the Romans. So the vessel on this picture must be a bronze canteen.


Frankzett you convinced me to change the wood into bronze right away but I think I never showed it here:

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Some traces of molding rubber are visible:
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A first cast:
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So thanks for your input guys! :yeah: :-D
I am very happy with it.

I made a new sail for the Greek Merchant Ship: a raised one for use in the harbor:
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Extra long corners to get that typical look like this:

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A very difficult shape to cast:
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Mr. Cryns  Netherlands

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Posted by Kostis Ornerakis on 12 Apr 2017, 18:07

Very clever idea for the blocks! ;-)

You have raised your molding techniques in a very high level! :thumbup: :-D
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Kostis Ornerakis  Greece
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Posted by stenfalk on 15 Apr 2017, 14:44

Mr. Cryns, i would like to say something what appreciates your work, your perseverance, your dexterity and your accuracy. But the words i would need for it are not yet created.

I am deeply impressed, a great thread! :notworthy:
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Posted by Mr. Cryns on 18 Apr 2017, 12:30

Thank you both, my dear friends,

NEVER GIVE UP AFTER A SECOND FAILED ATTEMPT?

Remember my first Phoenician rowing barge, Kostis you payed some interest in this boat.

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I wanted to make a resin copy of it to send it to Crete and make a few copies for my own use too. But things didn't go as was hoped for:

Gerard Boom succeeded in casting a complete Pirate galleon in one single part mold. Last januari I asked him to show me how.

We glued the wooden master on a sheet of foam:

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I sprayed it with parting agent. And then he showed me how to apply layers of a very elastic silicone rubber called DRAGONSKIN. For this I used a brush and applied the first layer. Each layer has to dry for a day so I left my ship behind and every following day Gerard applied another layer until with 6 layers the rubber skin was thick enough for removing. When the ship returned to me it looked like this:

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Because of the parting agent the mold came off very easy without damaging the very fragile wooden master:

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The elasticity of this mold is funny: it can be turned inside out:

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So cleaning of the inside is easy. At this stage the mold looked pretty good.
This rubber skin is too soft to use it for casting. For that a cheap two part plaster supporting mold is needed. With ship and rubber skin inside, the castingbox is divided in two halves by a temporary clay wall (right)covered in vaseline. The left halve is filled up with plaster:

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After the first plaster halve has hardened, the clay wall is removed:

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The (future) plaster joint is covered in vaseline, and the second halve is filled up with plaster. An hour later the casting box and foam sheet are removed:

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The supporting mold is opened:

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The wooden master removed:

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Wood colored resin poured into the grooves:

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After an hour the unpacked resin copy.....

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LOOKS TERRIBLE! :drool: :(

What went wrong? Air bubbles got stuck at the moment I applied the first layer of dragon skin at Gerards studio. Having a second inspection of the rubber skin mold, I did indeed see some imperfections.

Because the skin mold can be turned inside out, I tried to fix the holes by applying some silicone kit from a tube. That approved the quality of the resin copy. But it was still far below my desired accuracy level.

By now the wooden boat model was pretty much worn out. I repaired it with putty and applied layers of white glue to strengthen it for a third attempt.

Back to my own way of making a two part mold. Florist clay is used to make the temporary mold. This clay is not water solvant. It does not dry and it does not shrink during drying like potters clay. This clay bed curves with the shape of the ships stern to avoid ugly fins.

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My new waterpass to be sure gravity creates a horizontal ships bottom:

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Now I used a new low budget silicone rubber (lead and benzine based) with ratio 100:5. Cost is 20 euro for a liter instead of the 30 to 40 euros for the platinum quality rubbers. I measured it as correct as I could in ratio 80ml:4ml because I estimated I only needed 70 milliliter for the bottom halve mold. After intensive stirring I poured it in:

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The manual of this sillicone product sais: curing time 14 hours.
The next day, after 12 hours, I could detect no trace of hardening at all.
After 15 hours no hardening.
The next day after 36 hours still no hardening.

What to do? This stuff is terribly sticky. If I try to remove this liquid stuff now I will never get it out of all the small grooves and wood veins again. Is my little ship lost for budget reasons? Don't the English call this Penny wise pound foolish? :mrgreen:

I decided to wait for some more days. After 5 days it was still sticky but not fluable anymore. Now its one week later. Its still sticky but feels like some kind of fluffy rubber.

I think I better wait for one more week and see if its hard enough to open the molding box and rescue the wooden master boat.
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Posted by Roland_Kupski on 18 Apr 2017, 12:58

What a shakespearian drama! I am suffering with you (seriously). Losing a master without having a working mould is the hardest one.
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Posted by Kostis Ornerakis on 18 Apr 2017, 18:22

I am sorry for these news, And I am not speaking for the copies but for the master.
When I have similar problems with my molds (and this happens when I do not mix well the ingredients),
I put the mold in a pot with hot water. But here the master is wooden.
So I would try this: Heat the oven in a low temperature mean low enough to put my hand inside without problem. And then put the mold inside overnight. Even better I would put the mold in a pot with water ( but not covering the top of the mold ) and then put the pot in the oven. (The water will prevent mold to bend. )
My point is to heat the rubber evenly.
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Kostis Ornerakis  Greece
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Posted by Mr. Cryns on 20 Apr 2017, 11:02

Dear Roland thanks for your condoleances. I know empathy is part of your daily activities, its still nice to receive it from you :-D

Well, the ship is not lost yet. I hope time will cure the problem.

Thank you Kostis, I can always count on your support and technical help. :yeah:

Kostis Ornerakis wrote:My point is to heat the rubber evenly.

Is this to catalyze the curing process? Or is it to weaken the rubber to remove it from the master?

Kostis Ornerakis wrote:But here the master is wooden.


Yes and the white glue is not waterproof :shock:
Even when exposed to moist air, the wooden planks may get loose and pop up from the hull because their bends were locked under pressure by that glue. :eh:
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Posted by Kostis Ornerakis on 20 Apr 2017, 11:38

My first thought is to save the master. I also think that the mold will remain intact.
With my rubber, heat accelerates procedure.
Maybe patience is the best solution. :oops:
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Posted by despertaferro on 20 Apr 2017, 11:55

I'm always amazed when I see the intense research and the amount of work that some of you guys devote to your works!

You get my deepest respect and admiration!
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Posted by Frankzett on 22 Apr 2017, 18:12

Indeed, what a drama. Low cost materials are expensive at the end - I hope the oven procedure works for you.
A few days ago, I made some silicone muolds too, the papercard casing for the silicone get out of form, it was not rigid enough and the mold swallowed up a huge amount of this valuable silicone. I had no chance to cast the next mould with the remaining silicone. :affraid: Damn, I though!
Then I carved away some of the hardened mouldblock and I get the needed portions of silicone to fill the next mould casing together with the fluid silicone to make the next mould complete. :sweatdrop:

I'd luck this time....

Greetings
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Posted by despertaferro on 22 Apr 2017, 22:13

Dear Mr Cryns,

Sorry for posting this so late, but I've been thinking on the sailor you made and the curios object he's carrying on his right hand. I think it is not a canteen, but a lantern. The top cap, just above the place were the candle is fixed, can be opened because of the flame's hit. The two gaps, back and front, helps to direct the light. And the receptacle is for protecting the flame from the wind. At see, no matter you're sailing or anchored, there is always some breeze. It is almost impossible to light or keep lighted anything. If you need some light, you should protect the flame from the wind and the water constantly sprayed over the deck. I've not found any evidence of what I'm saying, but make sense to me. And the object looks like a lantern! :-D

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Posted by Mr. Cryns on 26 Apr 2017, 11:39

Kostis Ornerakis wrote:Maybe patience is the best solution. :oops:

Patience was the medicine.

After waiting another week for the low budget rubber to cure, it was hard enough to open the box and remove the master that came out in one piece :sweatdrop: and was saved thus :-D

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Only few tiny wood splinters stayed behind in the silicone mould. You can see the fluffy softness of that mould, looking like one of Salvador Dali's melting watches.

So what went wrong? I casted the other mold by using twice the prescripted volume of hardening fluid. Exactly like described in the manual, it was cured over night in 15 hours time :shock:
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Conclusion: component ratio should be 1:10 in stead of 1:20. I will tell this to my dealer by SHOUTING only :mrgreen:

Frankzett thanks for sharing your experience :yeah:
Can you reveal to us what you are casting?
Ancient ships I hope!

Frankzett wrote: the papercard casing for the silicone get out of form, it was not rigid enough

Papercards does not sound like the German way (gründlich) but I am glad to hear you succeeded in chopping of the excessive sides and add them again on top. :-D

Dear Despertaferro thank you so much for sharing your interesting idea:
despertaferro wrote: the curios object he's carrying on his right hand. I think it is not a canteen, but a lantern.


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The fascinating thing is: that image does come from an Etruscan object that is a bronze container itself depicting Classical Greek scenes from Jason and the Argonauts:
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The original image is half obscured:
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No doubt it is easy to recognise elements of a brass lantern in that object:
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For my initial sculpture I interpreted that object as a wooden barrel, something like this:
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But when I met Frankzett at Dioramica 2016 he showed me a book explaining that image as 'a can in one hand and a basket of clothes in the other'.

That is very similar to a Roman copper&brass canteen:
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Archaic Greek Cypriote terracotta:
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Or Peruan terracotta:
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I could find no source about ancient Greek lanterns except the terracotta oil lamps. They probably used translucent oil-skin to make lantern covers. Also remember ancient sailors usually went ashore before nightfall (and camped on the beach) to avoid needing to light the ship.
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