Work in Progress

Tyre 332 BC

Posted by Frankzett on 18 Jun 2017, 21:51

Great ideas with your work Kostis. A pleasure to see what's going on with these rowers. The combination of these bodies looks fine! I know there are advantages but some disadvantages with the grip I sculpted with the rowers. I made my thoughts with the sculpting of military rowers for modelling military vessels, so I had a different idea than Orion. But the mix with the legs of that Orion rowers looking good indeed!

Greetings
Frank
Frankzett  
 
Posts: 324
Member since:
29 Mar 2010, 20:25


Posted by Mr. Cryns on 19 Jun 2017, 16:52

First of all I like to thank Kostis Ornerakis for working on my rowing barge and posting his WIP pics in this thread. By doing so he was researching for me and paving the way for me when it comes to what rowers to use when I assemble and paint my own versions of this boat. Thanks again for helping me Kostis. :yeah: :-D :notworthy: :love1:

Now Wiking thanks for your feedback although when reading some of it I think you should have listened a little bit better to our Professor Sberry :winky:

Wiking wrote:my Dio: Opfer für Neptun.

I can't find anything with that name in this forum :( sorry.

Wiking wrote:Dragon, Preiser and Waterloo segment figures to do rowers in action very first.

WIP pics of these rowers, please!

Wiking wrote:1. So you have to do a set of rowers.

Correct I will :-)

Wiking wrote: Rowers in a little bit different pose. No mono culture

Don't worry.

Wiking wrote:Non nautical

What do you mean with nautical? Not sea going? Only for river and lake boats?

Wiking wrote:double rowers. With different angle of the arms to work the paddle.

??? Paddles were, in this part of the world, out of use at sea since the early bronze age I think.
So do you refer to a man paddling his riverboat with two hands on one paddle?
Or do you mean a man handling two oars, one in each hand?
Or do you mean a steering man handling his steering oar with two hands as a paddle like those Indian fishermen do?

Most important question: how many rowers and paddlers will you buy from me?

Wiking wrote:3a. A few with stripes at the back for point No.:6

Wiking wrote:6. Very important, and this is new, a women! who do crack the whip .

You sexist! :mad:

Wiking wrote:. A drummer.

Read Professor Sberry's words again: Drummers are Hollywood too.
The ancient Greek world of Mr. Cryns only knows double flutes to be played to set the rowing rhythm. :winky:
User avatar
Mr. Cryns  Netherlands

Supporting Member (Bronze) Supporting Member (Bronze)
 
Posts: 1153
Member since:
11 Nov 2015, 15:33

Posted by Wiking on 19 Jun 2017, 19:57

Mr. Cryns wrote:
I can't find anything with that name in this forum :( sorry.

You are right. I use the German title. Please use:
Victim for Neptune
I am sorry.
Image

Mr. Cryns wrote:
WIP pics of these rowers, please!

Unfortunately it exist no pic of this prototype stadium.

Mr. Cryns wrote:
What do you mean with nautical? Not sea going? Only for river and lake boats?

I used the words right and left. That is not very Nautical.

Mr. Cryns wrote:
So do you refer to a man paddling his riverboat with two hands on one paddle?

Image


Mr. Cryns wrote:
Kostis: :yeah: :-D :notworthy: :love1:

Wiking: :winky: :( :-) :mad: :winky:
Most important question: how many rowers and paddlers will you buy from me?




Mr. Cryns wrote:
You sexist! :mad:

:mrgreen: :yeah:


Mr. Cryns wrote:
The ancient Greek world of Mr. Cryns only knows double flutes to be played to set the rowing rhythm.

Image
Every day and night without any rhythm!
Believe me I need a drummer.
User avatar
Wiking  Germany
 
Posts: 1117
Member since:
14 Sep 2015, 10:03

Posted by Kostis Ornerakis on 19 Jun 2017, 23:06

Well Wiking I feel really uncomfortable replying to your post. But I'll do this because you are unfair both to Mr. Cryns and me.
I'll buy 0 figures from my friend Mr. Cryns, because I am very happy with my own copies. Here to say I have not even pay for the boat itself. I had to send many emails to him to persuade him to accept a symbolic amount for the second boat he has already send to me.
So, as I see myself as a rather good modeller, I offered to make a Wip in his thread to say thank you in this way. I stopped this because your e-mail exceeded my presence on the thread.

And I was really curious because you are one of my few supporters so far.

As far for the woman, you have read my mind.
Image
Image
She is my reduced copy with a CW head, further worked by me. As also my Red Riding Hood is.
User avatar
Kostis Ornerakis  Greece
Silver Brush winner
 
Posts: 527
Member since:
14 Feb 2016, 18:16

Posted by Bluefalchion on 20 Jun 2017, 00:55

Kostis--

As I read the situation, Mr. Cryns is quite happy to have you "taking over" his thread. Cryns can hold his own with anyone, as we have seen. As for Wiking, it seems that his humorous dios are part and parcel to his outlook on life--almost every word he types in these threads is humor (or an attempt at humor). I am glad he's around.

That female figure for the ancient boat looks fantastic! This has been my favorite thread on the forums for some years.
Bluefalchion  United States of America
 
Posts: 1123
Member since:
23 Dec 2010, 07:57

Posted by FredG on 20 Jun 2017, 08:03

If that woman is to wield a whip, the shape of her buttocks needs to be more in view. At least that's my take on the taste in this forum. :yeah:

Mr Cryns, that's a very long post basically criticising someone's translation to English. Does this mean you are being a smart arse? :P :P :-D :-D :-D :-D
User avatar
FredG  United Kingdom
 
Posts: 479
Member since:
09 Dec 2011, 21:47

Help keep the forum online!
or become a supporting member

Posted by Mr. Cryns on 20 Jun 2017, 10:31

Wiking I am sorry but don't know if you try to stimulate me, or just make jokes, or are in need of new rowers for a future diorama of yours. So lets stop joking before we get lost in translation completely.

Bluefalchion thanks for your wise words again.

FredG I never used the word arse (=dirty hole) but ass (=cute animal)

Kostis I hope we can exchange some copies of your home build ancient figures for one of my shipsboats. I like the lady very much. But want to make a small remark on the size of her face. I know you are always looking for the best faces from whatever company you can find. This one, with round cheecks and round forehead in combination with its somewhat exaggerated size compared to the body makes her look like a child with a mature body. Sizing down the face with 10% would solve that, but I understand you risk loosing her perfect face in trying so.
User avatar
Mr. Cryns  Netherlands

Supporting Member (Bronze) Supporting Member (Bronze)
 
Posts: 1153
Member since:
11 Nov 2015, 15:33

Posted by FredG on 20 Jun 2017, 10:55

Mr. Cryns wrote:FredG I never used the word arse (=dirty hole) but ass (=cute animal)


Oh sorry Mr Cryns but ass coupled with smart is an americanism for smart arse. If it's dirty I recommend a shower, bath or bidet.

Lol @smart donkey :P
User avatar
FredG  United Kingdom
 
Posts: 479
Member since:
09 Dec 2011, 21:47

Posted by Mr. Cryns on 20 Jun 2017, 13:53

1:72 SCALE THREE PART MOLD

Image

To avoid sculpting in a flat surface or separate limbs from the human figure before reproducing them, I developed my own 3 part mold system. I made my first 3 part mold attempts exactly one year ago, simultaneous with my first sculpting attempts. Because sculpting and casting go hand in hand and the one is always influencing the other.

Image

Remarkable fact: last year I could find no information on molding and casting 1:72 figures at all: not on the internet (only for larger scales) and not even in this Forum (which core subject is the production, painting and modeling in the 1:72 scale so why is the whole chapter of molding and casting absent?).
With the help of many forum members of whom BB, Phersu and Kostis have to be mentioned in particular I came to a way of molding and casting that is far from professional but is sufficient for what I need.

Image

First a temporary central mold is made:

Image

2 component silicone compound putty can be used for that like Sillyputty...

Image

...but a much cheaper mix of silicone kit, baby powder and sunflower oil will do too:

Image

Image

Image

Image

It will be cured within 30 to 90 minutes.

Image

For boxing the molding rubber, pieces of hardboard are fixed with hot glue. Any desired box size can be achieved:

Image

But its difficult to get all box walls straight and more difficult to reach the bottom for making the clay bed.

Thats much more easy with the use of lego bricks since these can be build up in hight during a secondary phase...

Image

...though with these the variations in boxing size are limited.

Most difficult part of molding a 1:72 scale figure is making the temporary clay bed. Water based very fine clay can be used:

Image

Question: Does anybody know another product instead of river clay / waterbased clay? I tried several artificial clays but one was too elastic and the other one was too sticky so almost impossible to remove from model and mold afterwards.

A rough shape of the model figure is prepared into the bed of clay:

Image

The model figure including its temporary central mold is pressed into the clay:

Image

The clay bed is sculpted into the desired molding line.
Most difficult of all is to press the clay carefully back towards the model figure without leaving gaps and without leaving traces of clay on the figure's upper halve.

Image

Two or more fixing holes are pressed into the clay with a wetted brush back end:

Image

The temporary clay bed is ready now. If we wait too long the clay dries and cracks which creates gaps between model figure and clay bed:

Image

So better pour the mold before the clay is dry. For that, a hardboard or plexiglass box has to be build around the clay bed or (like here) the lego walls have to be build up.

Many two component silicone rubbers are available:
- soft (for making single part molds)
- hard (for large or thin molds)
- colored (easy when cutting air duct canals afterwards, its difficult to see or photograph in white or translucent rubber)
- translucent (to trace back your model inside a single part mold)
- fast curing (keep the creative process going)
- slow curing (longer pot life and necessary for hard, stiff molds

For my three part molds I use medium soft rubber. And with changing the ratio 1:1 into 5:4 or 4:5 most silicone rubbers can be stiffened or softened. Like this one used by professional model casters, I got it from Hagen Miniatures:

Image

Or the next one, from an American company specialized in special effect movie make up and Halloween masks called Smooth-On.

Image

They sell a translucent version too:

Image

Before mixing and pouring the silicone rubber into the box, the central temporary silicone mold has to be covered in vaseline. So the fresh fluid rubber does not adhere to it. Also the inside walls of the box are covered in vaseline to make unboxing and cleaning the lego bricks more easy after curing.

The model figure itself is not covered with any sort of parting agent since that creates loss of detail. The clay bed can be covered in vaseline or oil but its not important.

To prevent air bubbles get stuck in the fluid rubber, pour around the model figure first, if possible into the lowest part of the clay bed, so air is pushed up from the bottom and does not get trapped around the figure. Brushing the first bit of rubber directly onto the model figure and pouring in the bulk of it afterwards will help a lot. But be careful not to damage the clay bed with a hard brush.

Image

After curing in about 30 minutes, and unboxing, the first outer mold halve looks like this (here a translucent example from a hardboard box):

Image

The clay bed can be removed but the figure should stay into the central and first outer mold. As soon as its getting out of the outer mold, its very difficult to get it in again without changing position and shape.

Water and brush may be needed to remove all traces of clay:

Image

Image

Now the lower mold halve has to be boxed again. Both lower silicone mold as the central mold have to be covered in vaseline again to prevent them from adhering to the top halve.

After pouring the second outer mold and trying to prevent air bubbles from getting stuck down and around the figure again...

Image

...it can be unboxed after curing is ready in about 30 minutes...

Image

...and thus comes out the original sculpted model figure in its 3 part silicone mold:

Image

When removing the model figure from its three molds, there is a small, fragile central mold of poor quality:

Image

It should not only be replaced because of its quality but also because its round shape prevents it from finding its exact position when placed inside both outer molds again:

Image

For that reason, the central mold has to be fixed to a fixing block:

Image

To achieve that, a square hole in the shape of a fixing block is cut all the way from the central mold to the outside of the outer molds, enabling it to be casted by pouring fresh silicone rubber in:

Image

Now both outer mold halves are covered in vaseline or parting oil:

Image

The original model figure is placed inside without the central mold:

Image

Image

After closing a square hole is visible and turned upwards:

Image

Enforced with hardboard plates to equal the pressure of the rubbers:

Image

Fresh silicone rubber is poured inside to create the central mold. Air bubbles getting trapped inside can be prevented by cutting an air duct canal, by shaking the mold after pouring in the fluid rubber or by moving a pin with a rounded head inside the hole and destroy air bubbles and let them move upwards to escape. Careful with this last way: when the pin removes the vaseline inside, the central mold will adhere to the outer ones.

Image

At the bottom of the mold the air duct canal is visible, silicone rubber leaking out but it helps the air to escape and the rubber to pour in.

Image

After curing:

Image

Removing the master model figure:

Image

To be continued....

Next time: casting a 1:72 scale resin figure in a three part mold.

Image
User avatar
Mr. Cryns  Netherlands

Supporting Member (Bronze) Supporting Member (Bronze)
 
Posts: 1153
Member since:
11 Nov 2015, 15:33

Posted by sberry on 20 Jun 2017, 14:21

Thank you very much for this detailed tour through the Mr. Cryns Labs! Very interesting!

Some of the pictures, I have to admit, look a bit weird: All these guys stuck in green slime and all this. A bit like props from the next horror movie or something similar. But then, on the other hand, there are those ignorant people who think that our whole hobby is weird, so who cares.
User avatar
sberry  Germany
 
Posts: 441
Member since:
12 Mar 2010, 20:37

Posted by FredG on 20 Jun 2017, 15:28

An excellent post Mr Cryns, nicely done.
User avatar
FredG  United Kingdom
 
Posts: 479
Member since:
09 Dec 2011, 21:47

Posted by Wiking on 20 Jun 2017, 16:48

Kostis Ornerakis wrote:
Well Wiking I feel really uncomfortable replying to your post.

In these thread I address no post to you.
User avatar
Wiking  Germany
 
Posts: 1117
Member since:
14 Sep 2015, 10:03

Posted by Kostis Ornerakis on 20 Jun 2017, 16:51

The Sillyputty idea for the core is precious! :yeah: :thumbup: :-D Thank you! :-D
User avatar
Kostis Ornerakis  Greece
Silver Brush winner
 
Posts: 527
Member since:
14 Feb 2016, 18:16

Posted by Michael Robert on 20 Jun 2017, 21:36

Thank you Mr Cryns for this post.

For me in casting the problem was that two-part silicone moulds always stuck together in spite of oïl treatment. Probably I need to try again with viscous vaseline as a parting agent.
Lots of good ideas in your post!

Cordially Michael
User avatar
Michael Robert  France

Supporting Member (Bronze) Supporting Member (Bronze)
 
Posts: 248
Member since:
14 Oct 2009, 19:22

Posted by Mr. Cryns on 21 Jun 2017, 12:24

Gentlemen, thanks for your kind replies.

Michael Robert wrote:For me in casting the problem was that two-part silicone moulds always stuck together in spite of oïl treatment


Dear Michael,

After Phersu explained and showed us this:
Image using the cheapest silicone kit he could buy in the local tool shop, I tried to make moulds like this. But every time the parting material was eaten by the acid in the silicone and both halves could not be separated. Phersu explained me it depends on the silicone. So I bought many different ones, cheap and expensive and made moulds with it over and over and over again and my pile of different silicone tubes became higher and higher. None of it worked. But was it the silicone or was it the parting agent causing the problem?

In such a situation I prefer to do a test:
the parting agent contra silicone kit test.

Image

The vertical lines are different silicones.
The horizontal lines the parting agents: olive oil, vaseline for human skin, and a professional very expensive fluid transparent parting agent.

Result: the vaseline resisted the silicone acid best, the professional parting agent was the least succesful.
The OK silicone, the cheapest one of all, adheres least to the underground and came off most easily. Still its acid is too agressive to make a proper mould with it.
Conclusion: cheap is best

I think mixing the silicone with baby powder, sunflower oil or both, reduces its adhesive power but also weakens the strength of the mould. But using small proportions of powder and oil may give the best result. I will try soon.
User avatar
Mr. Cryns  Netherlands

Supporting Member (Bronze) Supporting Member (Bronze)
 
Posts: 1153
Member since:
11 Nov 2015, 15:33

Posted by Kostis Ornerakis on 22 Jun 2017, 06:51

Mr. Cryns wrote:Question: Does anybody know another product instead of river clay / waterbased clay? I tried several artificial clays but one was too elastic and the other one was too sticky so almost impossible to remove from model and mold afterwards.

I use my daughter's plasticine. ;-) :-D
User avatar
Kostis Ornerakis  Greece
Silver Brush winner
 
Posts: 527
Member since:
14 Feb 2016, 18:16

Help keep the forum online!
or become a supporting member

Posted by stenfalk on 22 Jun 2017, 21:54

Kostis Ornerakis wrote:I use my daughter's plasticine. ;-) :-D


The plastiline of his daughter, the hair dryer of his wife... Has anyone ever noticed that his whole family has to give their utensils and belongings for Kostis can pursue his hobby? ;-) :xd:
User avatar
stenfalk  Germany

Supporting Member (Bronze) Supporting Member (Bronze)
 
Posts: 449
Member since:
28 Apr 2016, 15:08

Posted by Beano Boy on 23 Jun 2017, 17:46

Use soap and water and silicone. BB
Beano Boy  England
Supporting Member (Gold) Supporting Member (Gold)
 
Posts: 5154
Member since:
03 Sep 2013, 14:45

Posted by Michael Robert on 23 Jun 2017, 20:30

Thank you Mr Cryns for your additinal explanations.
Somehow I knew that you'd tested it out thoroughly. Your tests make perfect sense to me.

Let me make some additional interpretation - it is that my profession is in polymer science. You may call it "Professional deformation" - that is the need to get the scientific explanation correct.
The reason why the silicone moulds stick together stems form the fact that the newly cast (some polymer chains) will diffuse at the interface into the existing mould, which theoretically has crosslinked, but in reality remains still somewhat sticky (rective). Hence, both molds stick together. The fact that vaseline is most performant to me tells me that the higher viscosity of the vaseline simply prevents it from being "pushed away" when you pour the fresh liquid silicone on top.

Love this thread - still thrilled having seen your boat collection and your sculpted minis in real.
Michael
User avatar
Michael Robert  France

Supporting Member (Bronze) Supporting Member (Bronze)
 
Posts: 248
Member since:
14 Oct 2009, 19:22

Posted by Beano Boy on 24 Jun 2017, 15:29

My Soap Method

A large dinner bowl with warm not hot water,was filled and a couple of skirts of washing up liquid added and just stirred round by hand. There was no need for masses of soap just a little achieved a good end result. The Silicone was then squeezed out into the soapy water. It rolled over into a tangled mess but was easily handled without using gloves forming it into a ball ,it did not stick to my fingers. (Do not try and dry this before use it will stick to paper towel and ones fingers) I pressed this wet silicone over an entire pattern after taking it out of the soapy water. It worked a treat giving me a thin but strong detailed Egyptian mould that would enable both release of casting from the mould, and would then flip back into perfect place. BB
Beano Boy  England
Supporting Member (Gold) Supporting Member (Gold)
 
Posts: 5154
Member since:
03 Sep 2013, 14:45

Previous pageNext page

Return to Work in Progress