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1812 Campaign of Russia

Posted by Mr. Cryns on 12 May 2017, 13:35

You mean this picture?

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Mr. Cryns  Netherlands

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Posted by ADM on 12 May 2017, 14:12

You haven't selected the best picture among the 6 available but this is the right uniform I was talking about. :-)
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Posted by Wiking on 12 May 2017, 15:05

It is impressive to see the amount of painted figures in such a high quality. And with a good historical research too. :yeah:
Like your clean working table. :-D
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Posted by Mr. Cryns on 12 May 2017, 15:19

Ohoh!

My apologies, ADM, for choosing this worst picture. :oops:

I thought you meant the last picture because its the only one with some kind of light blue (but thats of course because of the flair overexposing all of that image.)

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This is the best picture showing clear blue in stead of underexposed black:
And I still see very dark blue here while the white is real white so we should not blame the (yellow toned?) artificial lighting of that museum.

Apart from this: Are we talking about pre-1813 voltigeurs of the line or of the light infantry?

Of course, every exception is possible. As long as the color is not too chemically strong. There were even white uniforms between 1806 and 1809 because of the lack of indigo. But why focus on the exceptions?

ADM wrote:which can be even more light under the sun


I think you are forgetting sunlight (and washing and dirt) also destroys the color intensity. We had the same discussion last year about some green cavalry uniforms. Also then there was confusion about the difference between light (more white less color) and bright (strong light color)
Dark blue becomes pale grey-blue, not bright sky blue. Thats technically another color I think.
Dark green does not become apple green by weather but gets grey-green or minth-green.

I like to compare such blue uniform with a blue jeans: very dark blue when we buy it (and not bleached in the factory on forehand) , but due to washing and sunlight it becomes light pale blue and then it falls apart before it would become completely white. It never becomes sky blue halfway that process.
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Mr. Cryns  Netherlands

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Posted by ADM on 12 May 2017, 20:06

The "not so dark" blue wasn't an exception, it was much used until the end of the campaign of Russia, but it's hard to find real uniform of that period because most of them have been lost or destroyed during this adventure. Most preserved and surviving uniforms today are trophy of the campaign of Waterloo, and they're shown to represent every Napoleonic battle in museum.

Dark colors became Fashion in Europe in every army in the end of the Napoleonic area (Including Russia). :-)

Some others real and authentic uniforms :

http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=144668

This one is old like a blue jean and show the bright sky blue on his back.

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This one is a surgery Major (You will notice the specific red for that branch of the army) very well preserved with the kind of blue in use before the end of 1812.

http://boutonancien.forumactif.com/t2649-bouton-bataillon-de-marche-campagne-de-russie-ou-hopital-de-campagne-a-confirmer

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In this page is the General treasury with that light blue I've used (auround the middle of this page) :

http://chroniquesdecarcassonne.midiblogs.com/tag/guillaume+roux+peyrusse
(Uniforme authentique de trésorier général.)

Finally, I think it's a matter of Taste none of the shade of blue is wrong, just select the one you prefer for your figures. ;-)
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Posted by FredG on 12 May 2017, 20:37

I wouldn't term that a light blue. To me it's French blue.

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Posted by ADM on 12 May 2017, 23:54

Yes, it's the french blue before the dark blue (nearly black) was adopted for everybody.

When the Napoleonic empire fell, there was much less manufacturers providing uniforms to the french army all over Europe, which allowed more uniformity with colors than before (and also less french troops who need french uniforms).

This photo is a uniform of a high rank officer working in a office only, which certainly explain why this uniform is in such good shape and the original color hasn't suffered, but for troops with the same blue, add some weathering and you have the light blue.

Many in the french army in 1812 were veterans who fought a lot of battles during many years (Austerlitz 1805 and so on), so it's logical to think that their uniform wasn't that dark, they wash it very often.

In 1813 the new recruits received a brand new uniform, darker than the previous one, who lasted only two years (Waterloo), not enough for much weathering.
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Posted by FredG on 13 May 2017, 08:00

I very much doubt that a soldier had the same uniform for 7 years. From accounts of one campaign in the Peninsula, the returning British troops were barely recognisable as human never mind distinguishing their nationality with torn, repaired, pieced together, faded, multicolour uniforms.
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Posted by ADM on 13 May 2017, 13:12

As long as the uniform can be repaired, he's not changed, it mean that some soldiers change it very often and some others keep the same for all his life in his unit.

Uniform of that time are so much customized for one person that you can't replace it by any others from another unit the way it is today in the army. Each one was handmade by a tailor, and it was sometime difficult to replace it rapidly.

The dye was of vegetable origin (not chemical) and many tone of blue was very common because of the sun, rain, wash and so on. Not to mention the clothing fabric of different origin with different blue (from black blue to the blue of the french flag, everything is possible and common).

For those speaking french :

http://gdif.forumactif.com/t2578-uniformite-mon-oeil

Anybody can pick the blue of his choice, to my opinion it's better to paint 1/72 figures with light colors so you can see better the details, using a very dark blue close to black hide the details unless you look at it very closely. My choice is an artistic choice, but still historically accurate. :-D
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Posted by FredG on 13 May 2017, 15:47

ADM wrote:As long as the uniform can be repaired, he's not changed, it mean that some soldiers change it very often and some others keep the same for all his life in his unit.


When I say repaired I mean by pieces of other uniforms British , French. Spanish, even bits of blanket. Any cloth that was available was used.

ADM wrote:Uniform of that time are so much customized for one person that you can't replace it by any others from another unit the way it is today in the army. Each one was handmade by a tailor, and it was sometime difficult to replace it rapidly.


That would not explain how Britain made and shipped uniforms to its allies. Other ranks were most definitely "off the peg". Agreed they were hand sewn by seamstresses as there was no other way to make them. Even nowadays clothes are handmade it's just that there are now sewing machines available to assist. They still need a hand to guide the fabric.
You are referring to officers' uniforms.

ADM wrote:The dye was of vegetable origin (not chemical) and many tone of blue was very common because of the sun, rain, wash and so on. Not to mention the clothing fabric of different origin with different blue (from black blue to the blue of the french flag, everything is possible and common).


Dyes were animal, vegetable and mineral. Synthetic dyes were not discovered until 1856 ( by accident)
That was the aniline dye Mauvine, a purple.
I don't recall any Campaign reports of the columns stopping so that uniforms could be washed. I would think the nearest uniforms got to being washed whilst on campaign was when its wearer waded a river or it rained
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Posted by C M Dodson on 13 May 2017, 16:26

Hello.

You may find these most knowledgable people helpful.

http://members.upnaway.com/~obees/soldi ... frame.html

Just click on the uniform section of choice and all is revealed.

Marvellous resource.

Best wishes,

Chris
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Posted by ADM on 13 May 2017, 19:33

Thank you for your link C M Dodson, but there's not much information inside, in this one :

http://frederic.berjaud.free.fr/articles_en_ligne.htm

you can find any details about many french infantry regiment, it's written in french but there's also a lot of photos about uniforms and equipment.

FredG, the factory provide all the material for uniforms and they're all sewed and assembled by tailors, the difference is, it's the army who pay and decide which tailors work for them, and the officers choose their own tailor and they pay by themselves. Most of the time it's local tailors where the army is based or located in the time of the need for new uniforms. So we agree on this point.

In the french army there was a lot of women " lavandières, vivandières et cantinières" working with a licence, following and providing anything the troops need and sewing/repairing uniforms when needed, They washed uniforms when and where it was possible (village/town, rivers).

The French army, as well as Britain can provide uniforms to their allies by the common pattern drawn on papers, showing how to cut and sew uniforms, they send all the material able to be assembled anywhere by local tailors, it's not finished and ready to wear uniforms, like this it can be adapted with all the small details according to the needs (infantry, artillery...).

For the french infantry, the number of the regiment is located on buttons, and those buttons are sewed only when a specific regiment ask for new uniform.
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Posted by FredG on 13 May 2017, 21:13

I can see we have a language difficulty so I'll leave it there
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Posted by C M Dodson on 14 May 2017, 08:36

Hello,

This is another fantastic resource.

http://www.centotredicesimo.org/wp-cont ... elot-1.pdf

Best wishes,

Chris
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Posted by ADM on 14 May 2017, 19:33

C M Dodson wrote:Hello,

This is another fantastic resource.

http://www.centotredicesimo.org/wp-cont ... elot-1.pdf

Best wishes,

Chris


Yes, thank you for this valuable link C M DODSON :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: , I bought a few of those plates many years ago (those plates were quite expensive at that time so it's not a surprise it was hard to sell) and enjoyed them a lot until it was discontinued, I'm glad to find them in your link so I can complete my collection !!!

Uniforms of the Napoleonic period is such a difficult task with thousands of very small details changing from one unit to another or one small period to the next one. we never have too much informations :-D

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Posted by ADM on 17 May 2017, 22:13

Here come another break in my project, during the coming days (May 17 to May 28) I won't paint any figures because the 70th Cannes film Festival has just started and I'm going to see a lot of movies and stars the way I do it each years ! :-D
Of course I will resume my work just after, I'm sure I will find my way home despite some Siren :mrgreen:


Some photos of Cannes, mostly taken in front of palaces (Majestic, Carlton...) and around the Palace Festival of Cannes :


This sign full of arrows is for a movie about Robin wood.
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The stars : :thumbup:

Alice taglioni
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Araya Hargate
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Deepika Padukone
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Elle Fanning
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Julianne Moore
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Michel Denisot - Bella Hadid
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Susan Sarandon
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Xiao Wen Ju
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Posted by MABO on 17 May 2017, 22:27

And like every year, there is the question: What are you doing in your normal life, despite painting figures and building wargaming tables :-D
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Posted by Susofrick on 18 May 2017, 07:49

And as every year I recognize one face, yours! I do recognize Susan Sarandon! :-D And I do wonder a little as Jan too!
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Posted by ADM on 19 May 2017, 01:33

A normal life is for normal people, I've never had a normal life and I'm 50 years old, so I have to assume that I'm special with a special life, That's the best answer I can give :mrgreen:

Some more photos of this Thursday May18,2017

on the photos already above, one small mistake about names, it wasn't Bella Hadid but Asia Argento, they share the same haircut and profile! :eh: 8)

Susan Sarandon was back and she still look great !
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Frederic Beigbeder (A French TV anchor)
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Haraya Hargate with another dress
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An actress I was unable to remember her name I'm seeing too much celebrities :D
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Deepika Padukone had a stunning look with this simple but beautiful dress
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Myself ready to command a fleet for battle ! :wink:
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Posted by Chariobaude on 19 May 2017, 15:26

the last pic makes me wonder, as others on the forum : "but what is your job ????" Chanteur de croisière ? :-D
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