Work in Progress

Late roman army in Gaul

Posted by Chariobaude on 31 Dec 2016, 00:04

well, i've to say i'm quite satisfied with my quick-and-dirty roman walls !
After less than three hours of work, for a cost less than one euro (I used an old cardboard delivery , pencil, cutter, and childrens painting), the result is acceptable... Anyway, i think i will use better materials for more a more ambitious fortress ! :-)
Image
User avatar
Chariobaude  France
 
Posts: 81
Member since:
22 Feb 2016, 10:43


Posted by sberry on 31 Dec 2016, 10:48

I would recommend Styrofoam, Styrodur, Depron or similar materials for making walls. It is easy to cut it into shape and to carve the stone structure, and this stuff is sold in many different strengths, so you can chose one the has exactly the thickness of the wall you want to have.
The problem with these foam sheets is that you cannot easily do round walls/towers, as you would need them for Roman fortifications.
But your cardboard solution looks nice, and it is a clever alternative when you have no other materials at hand.
The Airfix castle is one of my childhood memories. I had one, but it has disappeared like the rest of my old 1/72 and 1/32 collection.
User avatar
sberry  Germany
 
Posts: 442
Member since:
12 Mar 2010, 20:37

Posted by Chariobaude on 02 Jan 2017, 14:32

thank you Stephan, i'll try the foam. I just hope that it isn't to hard to cut (or needs specific tools) !

as you have seen in my cardboard model, i will try to build a modular city wall, taking my inspiration in famous ones :

theodosian walls obviously :
Image
Image
Image

But Thessaloniki walls are still very impressive, and show a typical late roman construction, mix of bricks and stones. It is less ambitious also, perfect for me :-)
Image

PS : what a shame for your roman fort, i searched for it on ebay, and apparently it became a quite expensive curiosity :shock:
User avatar
Chariobaude  France
 
Posts: 81
Member since:
22 Feb 2016, 10:43

Posted by Mr. Cryns on 07 Jan 2017, 17:57

Chariobaude,

I sold two Airfix Roman forts for about 15 euro's each last year at Crisis Antwerp. Why so cheap? Because for 25 or 20 euro's nobody wanted to buy them so I reduced the price.
A pitty I didn't know about your interest.
But at the same time I am glad you can't buy one. Because that fortress is a toy.
Even as a base for conversions its pointless since in the end almost nothing of it is usefull. Its all too thin, like cardboard, so even the breastworks on top of the parapets are much too flat. Even the outer wall stone reliefs are not very good.

Much more I like it to see you made your own wall in a typical late Roman or Byzantine style. Well just like Sberry says, you have to make round or semi-circular towers. Thats typical for your era. That's what makes late Roman fortresses different from early imperial ones I think.
The fortress form Airfix is based on Hadrians Wall. Thats not only the wrong area but also the wrong era (century).

Do you have any examples of late Roman fortresses in FRANCE?
I know a very interesting one from the 4th century Donau Limes in Hungary. It is very small (perfect for you), its square, has 4 propellor-shaped towers.
If you are interested, I can look for a pic of the reconstruction somewhere in my holiday Pictures and post it here.

Also you should have a look at Castellum Burungum (Haus Bürgel) on the Rhine.
It was build on the Gallic Roman side of the river but today its on the Germanic side because the Rhine moved itself during the centuries.

Image

Image

Chariobaude wrote:well, i've to say i'm quite satisfied with my quick-and-dirty roman walls !


Yes, looks very promising. I think you caught the 'sole' of late Roman architecture very well. Two tips:
1) be careful with deep red color for stone. A soft pink or brown reddish shade should be enough.
2) make sure the lower rows of stone are the biggest and the higher ones are getting smaller and smaller uptil the top. This is no law of Medes and Persians but just a common use for whatever fortress you build. Also it looks better because of proportional reasons.

sberry wrote:The problem with these foam sheets is that you cannot easily do round walls/towers, as you would need them for Roman fortifications.


Sberry gives you a lot of very good advices but this is what you need styroduc blocks for: 10x10x30 cm is perfect for making round or semicircular towers. Just use a carpet cutters knife with a blade you can break small parts of: if you shove this whole blade out of the grip to its full lengt of about 10 cm you have the perfect tool to cut styrodur. But you can use a raw file or heavy grit nail file too but that takes longer.
User avatar
Mr. Cryns  Netherlands

Supporting Member (Bronze) Supporting Member (Bronze)
 
Posts: 1153
Member since:
11 Nov 2015, 15:33

Posted by Chariobaude on 11 Jan 2017, 23:08

Dear Mr Cryns and Sberry, thank you for your very constructive advices ! i will definetely try foam in the coming weeks !
You both right about semi-circular tower, even if The Romans were so pragmatic that they reused the older constructions without always transforming them.
thank you for the pictures, a good source of inspiration !
Concerning late roman fortress in Gaul, without researches and i don't remember any. Maybe because Gaul was densely populated and the urban network was sufficient to house the units under the hospitalitas regime (one third of the housing and property of civilians such as wine and oil were reserved for the military during the winter housing ).
Many units carry the name of a city or a civitas where they were located (for instance Cortoriacences in modern Courtrai/Kortrijk; Geminianences in Geminiacum/modern liberchies ...).
But we do still have beautifull remains of late roman walls.
Le Mans off course Image
Image

or Dax in south of France Image

Before reading your very intersting answer, i've done an another part of my fortifications.
The brief was the same : easy to made in a very short time without any special tools or raw material.
And i wanted to make a tower wich can be used with my walls or alone, as burgus like those :
Image
Image

In a few hours I used an old cardboard found in the street in which I cut a shape, and i carved again my stones sith cutter and pencil.
Image
New, I realized with remains of cardboard "ripped" a roof of tiles. Image

With matches and bits of balsa, I realized a balcony that seems typical of the time according to the reconstructions, as well as the doors (on which I have not yet made the hinges). Image

There are still a lot of details to make, but we're not far away. Mr Cryns, it is to light years of your achievements, but hereit is the result :
Image

sorry for the pictures quality, i will take others more detailed and with a better light soon !
PS : what, 15 euros for a fort ! your absolutely right on its toy side, but it is a good base to work on :-)
PPS : you're right too on my bricks color, i will fix it, and my tiles are too flashy...
User avatar
Chariobaude  France
 
Posts: 81
Member since:
22 Feb 2016, 10:43

Posted by Mr. Cryns on 15 Jan 2017, 13:32

I am surprised again to see the lively stone pattern result you achieved with just such waste cardboard material you found on the street.

Chariobaude wrote:Le Mans off course

Wow! Of course? Well I didn't know at all there are such magnificent decorated Roman walls in Le Mans today. I should go there some day to see it.

About the square spire tower roof you made:
The higher the spire of the roof, the more it looks like northern european architecture but also like medieval style. For example like Carcassonne:
Image

(By the way, compare the Carcassonne rooftile color to yours)

I agree, a reconstruction of Roman Portchester in England shows very steep tower roofs:
Image

But typical for the Roman architecture is almost flat, Italian or Provence-style tyle roofs. Even if you build Roman roofs for Northern France I would suggest to choose the Southern european roof angle. Just to achieve that 'Roman' feeling.
Like this reconstruction from Arbeia, Durham, England:
Image

I think the spire roof you show us will be associated by most spectators with a Medieval churchtower or castle tower. Anyway, for every Roman building style your tower roof is too steep I think.

My other advice is about your use of bright, extreme colors but I have said that before. The color of your prefab grass mat is extremely bright like a brand new football field. As long as you place buildings and figures on extremely colored surfaces like this, it will draw the attention away from your main subjects: buildings and human figures. You should have another look at Phil's tabletop or gerry's Borodino diorama: Soft green, brown and beige, all natural colors, mixed in different shades.

Remember the shield patterns and the banners (flags) should usually be the most colorful elements of your dioramas and miniatures. That is something many modelers seem to forget.

Finally a few links to tutorials about how to work with styrodur foam:
About making a round tower (German language)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NngsC5Sp5ro
About use of styrofoam:
https://davidneat.wordpress.com/styrofoam/
Notice there are many different kinds of styrodur/styrofoam. And its very difficult to explain the difference. You must feel it with your own fingers.

Good luck with progress!
User avatar
Mr. Cryns  Netherlands

Supporting Member (Bronze) Supporting Member (Bronze)
 
Posts: 1153
Member since:
11 Nov 2015, 15:33

Help keep the forum online!
or become a supporting member

Posted by Chariobaude on 22 Apr 2017, 09:58

Times flies and real life issues (things boring like work, family, sport, all these things that deviate from your main mission on earth : figs!!!! :-) ) slowed a bit my project.

I've no time for building from scratch in a more serious way elements of fortification.
since my last post, maybe just 150 figurines have been painted, like the good old legio Flavia Victrix Constantina https://comitatusgaulois.wordpress.com/2017/03/23/flavia-victrix-constantina/ :
Image
Last additions :
Ursarienses : https://comitatusgaulois.wordpress.com/2017/04/01/ursarienses/
Equites octavo dalmatae : https://comitatusgaulois.wordpress.com/2017/01/29/equites-octavo-dalmatae-8eme-de-cavalerie-dalmate/
Equites secundo sagittarii : https://comitatusgaulois.wordpress.com/2016/12/07/equites-secundo-sagittarii-deuxieme-darchers-montes/
Image

But, the main information is not the new releases. For those who are following my project, you may have noticed that the sets available on late roman era are not very numerous. I've made a complete census here (translated in english for once, just scroll !) : https://comitatusgaulois.wordpress.com/2015/11/24/quelles-figurines-pour-une-armee-romaine-du-bas-empire-a-lechelle-172/

After more than 1500 miniatures painted, coming from three main manufacturers (Hät, Italeri and MiniArt) and 12 sets, conversion was the last limit to bring some novelty on the project.
My bucellarii (https://comitatusgaulois.wordpress.com/ ... cellaires/) was an attempt, that I believe succeeded, but to go further I need to master the green stuff... and time !

So, at the exception of an already started work on an another legio (the mattiarii iuniores) and some roman transports (from strelets, its only sets that i can use on this timeframe), i will dedicate all my time available on an attempt to bring more diversity on late roman era offer. I hope to show you some results in a couple of months, maybe more... (if it works !!!)
I'll keep you posted ! ;-)
User avatar
Chariobaude  France
 
Posts: 81
Member since:
22 Feb 2016, 10:43

Posted by Kekso on 22 Apr 2017, 17:36

Chariobaude wrote:since my last post, maybe just 150 figurines have been painted


WOW, that's a lot :shock: . Respect :thumbup:
User avatar
Kekso  Croatia

Moderator Moderator
Supporting Member (Bronze) Supporting Member (Bronze)
 
Posts: 4236
Member since:
19 Oct 2011, 18:32

Posted by Wiking on 22 Apr 2017, 19:00

I just look at the pic. Interseting.
Thank you :yeah: Chariobaude for the Pic of ...

Chariobaude wrote:
... we do still have beautifull remains of late roman walls.

Le Mans sound in my ears. I never expect something like that for the roman timeline. In such a quality.
Where I live (a few hour to drive) is the Limes. It is not a wall. Now. It is a line with some stones.
More known to me (schoolbook , film, museum) are the roman fortress of the last pic send by Mr. Cryns.
Funny is the turret ( medieval timeline?) on top of these wall in Le Mans. Added with an different angle! :-D
User avatar
Wiking  Germany
 
Posts: 1197
Member since:
14 Sep 2015, 10:03

Posted by Beano Boy on 23 Apr 2017, 12:06

That is very good work on the wall. :thumbup:
Scratch building ones own stuff is a pathway of great joy !
Especially if it is made of stuff normally assigned to the recycling bin.
The best advice I can give,is do not give up during this artful process of self education. BB
User avatar
Beano Boy  England
Supporting Member (Gold) Supporting Member (Gold)
 
Posts: 5198
Member since:
03 Sep 2013, 14:45

Posted by Chariobaude on 25 Apr 2017, 22:04

Wiking wrote:I just look at the pic. Interseting.
Thank you :yeah: Chariobaude for the Pic of ...

Chariobaude wrote:
... we do still have beautifull remains of late roman walls.

Le Mans sound in my ears. I never expect something like that for the roman timeline. In such a quality.
Where I live (a few hour to drive) is the Limes. It is not a wall. Now. It is a line with some stones.
More known to me (schoolbook , film, museum) are the roman fortress of the last pic send by Mr. Cryns.
Funny is the turret ( medieval timeline?) on top of these wall in Le Mans. Added with an different angle! :-D


Well, the limes wasn't a real wall : some schollar think even that it was more a term for a a road than a proper frontier. I think it is between the two : a border with forts, cities and fleets, wich aim to encourage (and control !) business with barbarians.

Most of the remain fortifications have been saved because some middle ages men build on it. An horror, but it saved at least the foundations.

Let's play : do you know what is it and where is it ? :

Image
Image

:-D

Beano Boy wrote:That is very good work on the wall. :thumbup:
Scratch building ones own stuff is a pathway of great joy !
Especially if it is made of stuff normally assigned to the recycling bin.
The best advice I can give,is do not give up during this artful process of self education. BB


Thank you ! Your advice seems very judicious, and corresponds to my weak learning curve! ;-)
User avatar
Chariobaude  France
 
Posts: 81
Member since:
22 Feb 2016, 10:43

Posted by Wiking on 26 Apr 2017, 05:03

Look like a ring.
The one ring!

Mordor ! :shock:

---

They change from circle in an cornfield to the city?

---

Sorry, I am far to be an expert in architecture.
A Circle. And lot of small how to say, arch at the base. It was a small Colloseum ?
On top of these strong base they build house.
The style is located in south France, Austria ... south Europe.

No parking place for the car of the owner, bad.
If one in the center open his contact, bluetooth for all? :-D
User avatar
Wiking  Germany
 
Posts: 1197
Member since:
14 Sep 2015, 10:03

Posted by FredG on 26 Apr 2017, 08:16

Piazza Dell’Anfiteatro
User avatar
FredG  United Kingdom
 
Posts: 520
Member since:
09 Dec 2011, 21:47

Posted by Mr. Cryns on 26 Apr 2017, 12:44

Chariobaude wrote:Let's play : do you know what is it and where is it ? :


FredG must be right, that amphitheater looks like a Roman colony town in a former Celtic area like Piemonte or Lombardy. Though the 'Gaul' content of this thread does not support that answer.

Chariobaude wrote:the limes wasn't a real wall : some schollar think even that it was more a term for a a road than a proper frontier. I think it is between the two : a border with forts, cities and fleets, wich aim to encourage (and control !) business with barbarians.


I think thats correct for the situation in the Netherlands and the Lower Rhine.
But more south, where the limes is not right behind the Rhine anymore, but in front of it covering the area between Rhine and Danube, you will find traces of real bank&ditch walls, enforced with wooden timber walls. The Ratian Limes, close to the Danube, was said to be partly a stone wall structure.
Some of it is still there, clearly visible from the sky. Do you use Google Earth? If so I will send you some interesting coordinates.
User avatar
Mr. Cryns  Netherlands

Supporting Member (Bronze) Supporting Member (Bronze)
 
Posts: 1153
Member since:
11 Nov 2015, 15:33

Posted by Chariobaude on 26 Apr 2017, 22:41

FredG wrote:Piazza Dell’Anfiteatro

You're right FredG :yeah:
Lucca is a very old city, created by the etruscans and a roman colony since 180 BC. So wealthy that the second triumvirate has been signed there, it was an important city. The old center (inside the walls) is still build on the original roman map : the old amphitheater is know a circle of houses, good guess FredG !You can actually see the old forum on piazza san Michele, where the church is.

If you go to Tuscany, go visit Lucca, the most genuine city of Tuscany imho...
User avatar
Chariobaude  France
 
Posts: 81
Member since:
22 Feb 2016, 10:43

Posted by Chariobaude on 26 Apr 2017, 22:50

Mr. Cryns wrote:FredG must be right, that amphitheater looks like a Roman colony town in a former Celtic area like Piemonte or Lombardy. Though the 'Gaul' content of this thread does not support that answer.


Well Lucca is in tuscany, but if i remember well, during the Republic, it was officially located in gallia Cisalpina :-)

Mr. Cryns wrote:I think thats correct for the situation in the Netherlands and the Lower Rhine.
But more south, where the limes is not right behind the Rhine anymore, but in front of it covering the area between Rhine and Danube, you will find traces of real bank&ditch walls, enforced with wooden timber walls. The Ratian Limes, close to the Danube, was said to be partly a stone wall structure.
Some of it is still there, clearly visible from the sky. Do you use Google Earth? If so I will send you some interesting coordinates.


You probably refer to what is called in french "le mur du diable" or "Pfahlgraben" in German, located in Raetia, but i have almost zero information on it. DO you have some to share, i'll be very interested !
User avatar
Chariobaude  France
 
Posts: 81
Member since:
22 Feb 2016, 10:43

Help keep the forum online!
or become a supporting member

Posted by FredG on 27 Apr 2017, 08:06

Chariobaude wrote:....... good guess FredG
...


Guess? :shock: That was no guess it was the answer :P
User avatar
FredG  United Kingdom
 
Posts: 520
Member since:
09 Dec 2011, 21:47

Posted by Chariobaude on 27 Apr 2017, 20:36

FredG wrote:
Guess? :shock: That was no guess it was the answer :P

My apologies fredG, i'm afraid my english is very bad :oops:
User avatar
Chariobaude  France
 
Posts: 81
Member since:
22 Feb 2016, 10:43

Posted by FredG on 27 Apr 2017, 22:11

No apology necessary.

Many British struggle with English, I'll not mention the Americans :P
User avatar
FredG  United Kingdom
 
Posts: 520
Member since:
09 Dec 2011, 21:47

Posted by Mr. Cryns on 29 Apr 2017, 10:45

FredG wrote:Guess? That was no guess it was the answer

I can't wait for the day Benno's Forum switches over to French or German language in stead of English, to see if our native English speakers are still such great joking smart asses :mrgreen: :affraid:

Dear Chariobaude,

The clearest visible part of the Roman Limes in Germany is this one in Baden Wurttemberg:

Image

The wall was situated at the left side, today mainly the ditch is left visisble.

At google earth you can find it here:

48°50'56.65"N 9°38'53.13"E

I made a foot trip following the limes at its start between Bonn and Koblenz . Into the forests, hidden under the trees, the earth wall and ditch are still clearly Visible over a long stretch.

Image

Which is here:
50°30'37.64"N 7°22'33.16"E
User avatar
Mr. Cryns  Netherlands

Supporting Member (Bronze) Supporting Member (Bronze)
 
Posts: 1153
Member since:
11 Nov 2015, 15:33

Previous pageNext page

Return to Work in Progress